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  • #31
    Why don't you show me where 50-plus years of harsh economic sanctions by the U.S. resulted in the overthrow of the Castro government. As Dr. Phil says "How'd that work for ya?".

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Pro View Post
      Why don't you show me where...
      Nah, I never mentioned anything on sanctions. Let's just stick with this one: 'show me where' the Treaty of Guadalupe Hidalgo fits in relation to your "NEVER" contention.

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Sultanosurf View Post

        Nah, I never mentioned anything on sanctions.
        I did.

        And I'm still waiting for your response.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by Pro View Post
          I did.

          And I'm still waiting for your response.
          Y'know, I enjoy a good discussion, but unfortunately when they're with you, they hit roadblocks. I can admire your tenacity, but not necessarily how or when you choose to display it.

          ​​​​​You made a contention, with the finality of the term "NEVER", that obviously you now don't want to acknowledge, since it's not supported by fact. And then demand to move on to something else.
          You have the right to make that choice. Just as I do to not pursue it.

          I'll say again that I'm surprised, considering your history in comments, that you feel more people have to "fight and die" to somehow prove that a change is needed or wanted in Cuba. My own personal experience and my own take on events has me on the other side, with the opinion that enough people have died already.

          I can live with us disagreeing, but despite all the other side discussions, my hope remains steady in regard to this topic, that beyond Castro dying, I truly hope that change will come for Cubans.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Sultanosurf View Post
            my hope remains steady in regard to this topic, that beyond Castro dying, I truly hope that change will come for Cubans.
            OK, fine. That's pretty generic. The question is what role should the U.S. play, if any? Pursue current policy...or go back to the attempted economic extortion of the past.

            I say the former. Not that I expect that to happen. Unless the recounts produce a miracle.

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            • #36
              Well, now you're into recounts.

              I'll have to stick with what I've posted so far. Since we have Trump coming in, I would assume he will have had plenty of input from Cuban-Americans while campaigning, and maybe even feel a measure of accountability after winning their votes. Cuban-Americans are probably among the most devoted, patriotic and proud citizens in our country. Like them, I'm willing to see what he can accomplish.

              ​​​​​​​Obama made some real progress, but there is much yet that can be done, and maybe Trump really CAN make a better deal.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Sultanosurf View Post
                and maybe Trump really CAN make a better deal.
                Whatever deal he make, I'm sure it will benefit his financial interests.

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                • #38
                  The chorus of praises from Trudeau, Carter, Stein and others was kinda sick to me.
                  Nothing changes the fact that Castro was a Communist thug who gleefully tortured and killed his own people.
                  And he's still dead.
                  \"I should sooner live in a society governed by the first two thousand names in the Boston telephone directory than in a society governed by the two thousand faculty members of Harvard University.\"<br /> William F. Buckley, Jr.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Pro View Post
                    Meanwhile you fail to acknowledge the lack of any revolutionary movement within Cuba. You just can't accent that perhaps a majority of Cubans in the country may approve of their system of government.
                    You know, you're on to something there.

                    There is proof of your point having some validity....

                    For example, the citizens of North Korea and Venezuela are solidly behind their leaders. Hell, Kim got 100% of the Presidential vote in the last election.

                    There is no better example of complete support than that, right?

                    Originally posted by Pro
                    You have no concept of people actually seeing things differently than you, right?
                    Originally posted by Pro
                    Nice attempt at deflection. Blame the messenger. Classic.

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Pro View Post
                      Why don't you show me where 50-plus years of harsh economic sanctions by the U.S. resulted in the overthrow of the Castro government. As Dr. Phil says "How'd that work for ya?".
                      Perhaps it would have had the Soviets not propped up Cuba almost all of those 50 plus years.

                      I don't think its by coincidience that the Cubans started to open up their economy to a small dose of capitalism when the Soviets could no longer support the Cubans.
                      Originally posted by Pro
                      You have no concept of people actually seeing things differently than you, right?
                      Originally posted by Pro
                      Nice attempt at deflection. Blame the messenger. Classic.

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                      • #41
                        And that's the point. Introduction of free market economics will do more to bring about change than "tough guy" sanctions. Not that they have that now, but it is at least a bit "freeer" than it was 50 years ago. The U.S. should encourage that even more, allowing more U.S. business to operate in Cuba and negotiating with the government to allow more of it to happen. It won't happen overnight, and progress may be slow. But it will be progress.

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                        • #42
                          He will be sorely missed.

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