I'm going to get slaughtered for this...

[commercial hack]

but oh well. I saw this today and thought it expressed my views pretty well.

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by
legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person
receives without working for, another person must work for
without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody
anything that the government does not first take from
somebody else.

I believe this next part to be essential and we have to avoid this thought process to survive.

When half of the people get the idea that
they do not have to work because the other half is going to
take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea
that it does no good to work because somebody else is going
to get what they work for, that my dear friend, will prove
the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~~~ The late Dr. Adrian Rogers , 1931 to 2005 ~~~


Flame on.

[News Is Broken]

I call dibs on the name "Brokenania" for my little speck of land that will become a sovereign nation when the US collapses.

[Delta Dawn]

Very interesting...

"What one person receives without working for"... Here he's obviously talking about the rich who use money, power and influence to keep their wealth, which they then pass on to family members and some friends in the way of favors. "...another person must work for without receiving." Here he's obviously describing the poor and the working class who work hard but cannot get the high quality education, housing or medical treatment easily obtainable by the rich.

"The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from
somebody else." Here of course he's talking about tax cuts for the wealthy.

"When half of the people (the wealthy) get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half (the working class) is going to take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work (the working class) because somebody else is going to get what they work for, (the wealthy) that my dear friend, will prove the end of any nation."

The wealthy, or idle class, is finding this out about right now.

[Tripe Face]

Originally Posted by commercial hack

but oh well. I saw this today and thought it expressed my views pretty well.

"You cannot legislate the poor into freedom by
legislating the wealthy out of freedom. What one person
receives without working for, another person must work for
without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody
anything that the government does not first take from
somebody else.

I believe this next part to be essential and we have to avoid this thought process to survive.

When half of the people get the idea that
they do not have to work because the other half is going to
take care of them, and when the other half gets the idea
that it does no good to work because somebody else is going
to get what they work for, that my dear friend, will prove
the end of any nation.
You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it."

~~~ The late Dr. Adrian Rogers , 1931 to 2005 ~~~


Flame on.

Who has the idea the they "don't have to work"

I'm sure there are a few people out there who are satisfied with life on the government dole.

But I believe the VAST majority of people who receive government aid have the same desire to better their lives as everyone else. I believe most want to get OFF government welfare rolls (for lack of a better term)... but that's not always easy to do.

On the other hand, I've met very few successful wealthy people who aren't willing to help those less fortunate. This is America... I believe we are the most philanthropic people in the world.

I'm sure everyone wishes that such help from those who have to those who have not did not have to be legislated into reality... but the world is not perfect.

[Dap]

Well now this assumes all wealthy citizens came upon their fortune through their very own honest and fair sweat and labor.

Black and white statements rarely hold up under scrutiny. One can list a menu of items the wealthy benefit from government taxes.

Public schools provide educated workforces able to read and understand instructions.

Roads allow workers to quickly and easily come to work.

Utility grids built by government provide energy to produce goods and services.

Government agencies, presumably, insure safe water and food to you and your workers, keeping them on the job rather than wretching their guts out at home.

Police prevent competitors from burning down your business.

Fire departments come put out the fire if your employees set the place on fire.

Courts allow you to seek justice and enumeration from competitors who paid said employee to commit arson.

The military prevents the Chinese from coming ashore and taking your manufacturing gear.

Even welfare payments allow the poor to purchase your goods and services while simultaneous keeping a social revolution against the rich at bay, yeah?

Now then, someone else can take time to list a menu of capitalist financial and literal violence against the working class.

[Marty McFly]

When we hear that the government is going to do something, many fail to understand how the government will actually do it.

Government can only 'give' to one by taking from another.

Your 'free' education comes from the pockets from others. And of course the list goes on...

[Clever Login Name]

Originally Posted by Tripe Face

Who has the idea the they "don't have to work"

I'm sure there are a few people out there who are satisfied with life on the government dole.

But I believe the VAST majority of people who receive government aid have the same desire to better their lives as everyone else. I believe most want to get OFF government welfare rolls (for lack of a better term)... but that's not always easy to do.

"A few"?

FYI, the stimulus bill contains provisions that will encourage states to EXPAND their welfare rolls.

[commercial hack]

Originally Posted by Tripe Face

Who has the idea the they "don't have to work"

I'm sure there are a few people out there who are satisfied with life on the government dole.

But I believe the VAST majority of people who receive government aid have the same desire to better their lives as everyone else. I believe most want to get OFF government welfare rolls (for lack of a better term)... but that's not always easy to do.

On the other hand, I've met very few successful wealthy people who aren't willing to help those less fortunate. This is America... I believe we are the most philanthropic people in the world.

I'm sure everyone wishes that such help from those who have to those who have not did not have to be legislated into reality... but the world is not perfect.

All of that is very true, Tripe and I agree. My point also is too many people think Gov will solve their problems first before looking at themselves to find out why they're in the mess they're in and relying on themselves to get out. Nothing wrong with a hand up.

[DW]

I agree with Dr. Rogers.

[Tripe Face]

Originally Posted by Clever Login Name

"A few"?

FYI, the stimulus bill contains provisions that will encourage states to EXPAND their welfare rolls.

Could it possibly be because more people currently NEED government aid because their lives were ruined because of the actions of the filty rich managers of companies AIG, Merrill Lynch, or Bernie Madoff or similiar lowlife.

[Dap]

Originally Posted by Marty McFly

When we hear that the government is going to do something, many fail to understand how the government will actually do it.

Government can only 'give' to one by taking from another.

Your 'free' education comes from the pockets from others. And of course the list goes on...

Has someone maintained that public education is free?

Go to any country that hasn't public education to see what life in the US would be like.

Look here. All those items I listed and more contribute to a relatively safe society with relatively a good standard of living per capita. If you wish to live in a society where a higher standard of living for every individual isn't considered a worthy goal, you have a choice of many, many third world countries.

[Tripe Face]

Originally Posted by Dap

Utility grids built by government provide energy to produce goods and services.

.

I'm almost certain you are mistaken about this.

I believe power'/utility companies themselves paid to build and maintian the utility grid (although I grant you if you consider water/sewer, those are usually governmental agencies and some government control/investment in power companies exist... IE Tenn. Valley Authority)

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Dap

Public schools provide educated workforces able to read and understand instructions.

And public schools fail miserably in many places where monopolistic practices and union lobbying prevents private alternatives, vouchers, and home-schooling for those who seek different opportunities.

Let's divide public schools into larger yet overlapping districts, and let them compete with each other for students. It wouldn't cost any more than it does now, but there would be competitive pressure to better perform, and we'd get a better sense of which practices and techniques yield better fruit.

And vouchers, too.

Originally Posted by Dap

Roads allow workers to quickly and easily come to work.

No one has argued against roads, but let those decisions be made by the people who live near the roads. So we don't build Congressionally mandated Bridges to Nowhere.

Originally Posted by Dap

Utility grids built by government provide energy to produce goods and services.

Tripe answered this earlier. With exceptions like the TVA, government is not a factor there.

Originally Posted by Dap

Government agencies, presumably, insure safe water and food to you and your workers, keeping them on the job rather than wretching their guts out at home.

Presumably.

They also tend to over-reach to justify a continued existence when the allocation of those resources might yield a better societal result spent elsewhere. In some cases, businesses are forced to spend fortunes meeting air and water standards that far exceed the benefit.

Originally Posted by Dap

Police prevent competitors from burning down your business.

The enforcement of fair laws is a function of the state.

Originally Posted by Dap

Fire departments come put out the fire if your employees set the place on fire.

...unless you live in areas where there is a Volunteer fire department. Those people do pay more for their property insurance, unless they maintain certain standards for the VFD. This is a clear example of a free market solution.

Originally Posted by Dap

Courts allow you to seek justice and enumeration from competitors who paid said employee to commit arson.

Agreed. A function of the State.

Every prosperous nation has two things in common: Free Trade, and the Rule of Law. The freer the trade and the more equitable and enforced the law, the better.

Originally Posted by Dap

The military prevents the Chinese from coming ashore and taking your manufacturing gear.

Yep. No argument from me.

Originally Posted by Dap

Even welfare payments allow the poor to purchase your goods and services while simultaneous keeping a social revolution against the rich at bay, yeah?

They also can become a political weapon. I remember a few years back the Democrats wanted an 8% increase in Medicare spending, and the GOP lobbied for a 4% increase. The Democrats campaigned hard on those evil Republicans for wanting to CUT Medicare by 4%.

Originally Posted by Dap

Now then, someone else can take time to list a menu of capitalist financial and literal violence against the working class.

Walmart has never through the threat of violence taken money from my paycheck.

Enron didn't just take money from me to buy Lehman assets for 78-billion dollars less than they were worth.

Government will never be punished, though, because there is no one big enough to do it. Sure, one party might get temporarily booted to the fringe for a while, but Big-G just rolls right on.

[Diplomat]

Commercial hack and Vulcan have, as usual, made a lot of sense.

[SamG]

Originally Posted by Marty McFly

When we hear that the government is going to do something, many fail to understand how the government will actually do it.

Government can only 'give' to one by taking from another.

Your 'free' education comes from the pockets from others. And of course the list goes on...

So education shouldn't be free? You should HAVE to pay for your children to go to school?

[Marty McFly]

Are you drunk? Education on any level isn't free to begin with.

[Tripe Face]

Originally Posted by Diplomat

Commercial hack and Vulcan have, as usual, made a lot of sense.

What no love for me? Even Hack agreed with me. Dip, I thought we were tight, dude!

[Diplomat]

Originally Posted by Tripe Face

What no love for me? Even Hack agreed with me. Dip, I thought we were tight, dude!

You are correct. My apologies and yes, I do love you, Tripe.

I especially appreciated your comment about Americans being a generous people. Very well said!

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Diplomat

Commercial hack and Vulcan have, as usual, made a lot of sense.

Actually, given my long absence, it really isn't usual for me to make sense.

Originally Posted by Tripe Face

What no love for me? Even Hack agreed with me. Dip, I thought we were tight, dude!

Tripe, you make a lot of sense too. Even Dap makes sense -- but I don't agree with the premises!

[News Is Broken]

Hand on other sense I no the make, whatsoever. And I'm OK with that.

[Tripe Face]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Tripe, you make a lot of sense too. Even Dap makes sense -- but I don't agree with the premises!

Pol Pot

[Pro]

Originally Posted by Marty McFly

Are you drunk? Education on any level isn't free to begin with.

I think the question should be if education should only be avialable to children of parents who can afford it.

[News Is Broken]

On a somewhat related note, maybe if we DID have to pay to send our kids to school, that California welfare octuplet mom thing maybe wouldn't have happened...

[Roy Hobbs]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

And public schools fail miserably in many places where monopolistic practices and union lobbying prevents private alternatives, vouchers, and home-schooling for those who seek different opportunities.

Let's divide public schools into larger yet overlapping districts, and let them compete with each other for students. It wouldn't cost any more than it does now, but there would be competitive pressure to better perform, and we'd get a better sense of which practices and techniques yield better fruit.

And vouchers, too.

No one has argued against roads, but let those decisions be made by the people who live near the roads. So we don't build Congressionally mandated Bridges to Nowhere.

Tripe answered this earlier. With exceptions like the TVA, government is not a factor there.

Presumably.

They also tend to over-reach to justify a continued existence when the allocation of those resources might yield a better societal result spent elsewhere. In some cases, businesses are forced to spend fortunes meeting air and water standards that far exceed the benefit.

The enforcement of fair laws is a function of the state.

...unless you live in areas where there is a Volunteer fire department. Those people do pay more for their property insurance, unless they maintain certain standards for the VFD. This is a clear example of a free market solution.

Agreed. A function of the State.

Every prosperous nation has two things in common: Free Trade, and the Rule of Law. The freer the trade and the more equitable and enforced the law, the better.

Yep. No argument from me.

They also can become a political weapon. I remember a few years back the Democrats wanted an 8% increase in Medicare spending, and the GOP lobbied for a 4% increase. The Democrats campaigned hard on those evil Republicans for wanting to CUT Medicare by 4%.

Walmart has never through the threat of violence taken money from my paycheck.

Enron didn't just take money from me to buy Lehman assets for 78-billion dollars less than they were worth.

Government will never be punished, though, because there is no one big enough to do it. Sure, one party might get temporarily booted to the fringe for a while, but Big-G just rolls right on.

Hitler.

[Marty McFly]

Originally Posted by Pro

I think the question should be if education should only be avialable to children of parents who can afford it.

Why should education be an exception? I can't afford a Ferrari.