Hiring

[Pinkie]

I saw a similar thread over on TV Spy. In this economy, and with the way the broadcast industry is right now, what companies ARE hiring? I know my company is on a freeze, as are the companies that own the other stations in town. Is anyone doing well? I've talked to some friends and former colleagues who are job searching right now and say they're hitting wall after wall, not just because its December, but that everyone is in a freeze with no end in sight.

So is anyone doing well?

[wx or not]

I feel pretty good. Thanks!:hug:

[Diggin' Bear]

Me, too. I got it good...REAL good...right now.

[LostinWords]

I started the job hunt about a month ago... had an interview....sent out about 24 apps last week...it's slow, but moving....and I feel lucky. Other college grads are having a really rough time. This is the worst time to graduate.

[Galaxian]

I'm doing very well, now that I work at a station without any money problems. My last station has a hiring and wage freeze in effect, and the money is so tight, the annual Christmas party has been cancelled. At my current station, we're hiring for new positions, we don't have any significant money problems, and we're having a big Christmas party this year. Hell, we even got decent Christmas tree ornaments from the station.

With all of the bad news I'm hearing about the broadcasting business, I feel VERY lucky to be where I am now.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

Industry-wise....it's safe to say anyone in the booze biz is doin' alright.
News-not looking good.
American Auto-bad.
Alcohol/tabacco-great.
And according to a story we did recently, Cobblers are nearly triple the business in shoe repair right now.

[Produce man]

Mmmm......cobbler.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

Mmmm......cobbler.

Great, yet another forum to which you contribute nothing.

:rolleyes:

[Diggin' Bear]

Great, yet another forum to which you contribute nothing.

:rolleyes:

And he hooks you for a response every time.....just like Super Sally.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

And he hooks you for a response every time.....just like Super Sally.

And you respond to my response every time.....just like Mr. Douche himself.

[wx or not]

And you respond to my response every time.....just like Mr. Douche himself.
...and you respond to his response, because his response was in response to, oh hell, nevermind...:doh:

[Produce man]

And he hooks you for a response every time.....just like Super Sally.Of course he responds. He's my *****. I own him.:thumbsup:

[News Is Broken]

...and you respond to his response, because his response was in response to, oh hell, nevermind...:doh:

You responded, I responded,
He responded, she responded,
Wouldn't you like to be a 'sponder too? :rockon:

[Produce man]

I rest my case.

[Roy Hobbs]

I saw a similar thread over on TV Spy. In this economy, and with the way the broadcast industry is right now, what companies ARE hiring? I know my company is on a freeze, as are the companies that own the other stations in town. Is anyone doing well? I've talked to some friends and former colleagues who are job searching right now and say they're hitting wall after wall, not just because its December, but that everyone is in a freeze with no end in sight.

So is anyone doing well?

Why yes...yes, I am. How are you doing?

[Charlie Brown]

an answer to this question can be found by perusing tvspy's daily quick links or tvjobs' "on the move" section.

A better question - and possible story idea, depending on the market - would be which industries are expanding at a time when everyone else seems to be contracting?

[s'news]

And according to a story we did recently, Cobblers are nearly triple the business in shoe repair right now.

Those who are in need can get looking right away.

[Roy Hobbs]

Of course he responds. He's my *****. I own him.:thumbsup:

Ah yes...and finally the obvious from the Obvious. How's it going Dyckerson?

"Produce is my _itch" indeed. Clean up your language twerp.

[SamG]

We're hiring (or at least I've seen the ND with 2-3 interviewees the last week or so). We also got our holiday bonus CHECK yesterday... a VERY generous bonus at that (and the sarcasm font is intentionally left off).

[Pinkie]

an answer to this question can be found by perusing tvspy's daily quick links or tvjobs' "on the move" section.


And looking at the "On The Beach" list, which is pretty lengthy.

I was just wondering if any stations or companies are hiring during this time. I'd hate to be someone just getting out of school right now. 2009 doesn't look like it will be much better either, it probably will get worse before things improve.

[Charlie Brown]

well...two questions - are j-schools actually preaching the reality that what once were long odds to get an on air job paying a decent wage are now seemingly impossible (although if I can do it, well it's possible) and two, do any of the current crop of j-school students care?

Judging by this board and this board alone, I'm not sure they do. They see the veterans coming around here grumbling about the state of the business and think "they're just trying to scare off their younger, hotter competition. I'm the future of journalism and I'm gonna show them how to do it!".

[wx or not]

If they can build a better mousetrap (that doesn't involve OMB's), then I say go for it!!!

[JoshNYNews]

Well, our parent company, Time Warner, is starting up a new 24 hour broadcast station in Buffalo. So there's some new hires right there. I am stunned that in this economy, with the obvious struggles in news and with Buffalo's economic standing, they would start a new one. We are planning a March launch. Although from what I gather, it will start as a small op, with anchors stacking their own wheel (which is fine for a smaller market, but this is 50 -- although I assume more of this is happening now).

[Spike]

Although from what I gather, it will start as a small op, with anchors stacking their own wheel (which is fine for a smaller market, but this is 50 -- although I assume more of this is happening now).

I have worked in even larger markets that had Time Warner 24 hour cable stations. They're ALL run like small market outfits. At one particular top 30 attempt, they were hiring reporters with a year's experience in 100+ markets and photogs and producers with no experience at all. Some of those reporters were making half what new hires at the other stations were making and still thought they had hit the big time.

Those outfits are generally considered a joke.

[OntheRebound]

well...two questions - are j-schools actually preaching the reality that what once were long odds to get an on air job paying a decent wage are now seemingly impossible (although if I can do it, well it's possible) and two, do any of the current crop of j-school students care?

Judging by this board and this board alone, I'm not sure they do. They see the veterans coming around here grumbling about the state of the business and think "they're just trying to scare off their younger, hotter competition. I'm the future of journalism and I'm gonna show them how to do it!".


Graduated in 2000. Back then I heard the same thing I am hearing now on this board with a different spin--"horrible business, no chance of making it"---UNLESS you are an attractive minority. All my white male professors were of the view point that all I would have to do is show up at a t.v. station and someone would hand me an on-air job.

Now, I never believed any of those professors, which is why I did several internships and networked like crazy. Had I gone on their word; I imagine I would still be sitting at my mom's house in Texas sending out DVD's and tapes made during our J-school newscast, just waiting to trade in on that promise. I've had to hustle just like everyone else (started in a small market shooting my own stuff) and was even on the beach for more than a year after leaving a station on my own terms.

I'm in a decent sized market now , but strangely enough, all my white male classmates who graduated at the same time, are actually doing better than I am--if you judge by market size, positions, and salary. That is, those who stuck it out. I'm certainly not going to argue that all of them are any more or less talented than I--just that professors can give bad advice, if they give it all.

About the current crop of grads: If I put myself in their shoes I imagine I would not be dissuaded at all, but for entirely different reasons than mentioned.

There are 3 colleges in our DMA with decent, not great, broadcast programs. In our market (mid 50's) there are two main female anchors (different stations) under the age of 25. Women, who just two or three years ago were these recent grads classmates or who interned a few semeters ahead of them, are now lead anchors in this market!

That gave them hope. We have more interns now than ever. Not good ones, but the quantity is there and I don't think it's any coincidence. Only one station (not ours) requires at least 3 years of reporting experience for new hires. Our station and a competitor have put several interns on air as reporters or hired people with a year or less experience to report.

If at 23 or 24 someone made you a MAIN anchor in a mid market (or better) and signed you to a 2 or 3 year contract wouldn't you feel optimistic? Especially, if you tend to think the pendulum could swing back the other way at some point (as far as salaries). If you believe at that age (As THE GM will certainly try to convince you to justify his lowball salary ) that you beat out more experienced women, with solid ratings, of equal attractiveness, who are just 4 or 5 years older than you who just happened to make twice what you are making---wouldn't you feel there is OPPORTUNITY in t.v. for a recent grad?

Our main sports guy is under 30. Got the job because the first main guy was let go and then budget cuts forced out the next one. He's the happiest person in the newsroom. He thought he'd have to work 5 more years and maybe move a couple of times to get that job. So, he hardly complains that he's doing the work of three people by himself on some days.

We have two very young meteorologists for a similar reason. Our experienced guy retired and then budget cuts forced us to hire two to work under the chief. Neither has been out of school more than two years.

In three years (if they stay that long) these folks are still young enough to move on to bigger and better things possibly OR change their minds and do something else entirely. They are not like the people who in the past plugged away 9 and 10 years for those spots.

A lot of these people are not naive about the salary situation necessarily--they know they are getting lowballed--but a lot of them see themselves getting prime opportunities at a faster pace, which affords them to either seize the moment and use it to their advantage OR leave the business without feeling like they've wasted years trying to attain a certain position.

In the eight years I've been in, so many of my colleagues have worked so hard to make it to mid markets (or better) just trying to get the jobs these kids have RIGHT NOW and are leaving because they see the writing on the wall, but the difference is they feel duped.

As my mom so often reminds (nags) me--10 years is a long time to work toward something and not have much to show for it (salary, position, market size, nest egg ,etc)

[bw3508]

Any additional info on the new Buffalo start-up? Are they simply launching a new bureau for News 10 Now, or are they going solo like R News?

[TAFKA wacowx]

OnTheRebound,

Are you saying that there IS reality preached in schools and newer TV-employees-to-be know what to expect, OR they are seeing how successful they can be much more quickly than in the past?

I am reading a mixed message in your post: I see you saying that some students see that they can move up quickly (albeit for MUCH lower salaries), but I also see you saying how people are feeling duped and you are not in a good place 10 years in (mother comment).

[TAFKA wacowx]

Any additional info on the new Buffalo start-up? Are they simply launching a new bureau for News 10 Now, or are they going solo like R News?

If it's like the other Time Warner properties, it's generally a seperate entity. However, they have been centralizing many of their properties recently, so I would think weather might get done from a centralized NY location. I don't know if the anchoring would be done there...reporting certainly, unless they did a deal with one of the local stations.

[TAFKA wacowx]

I have worked in even larger markets that had Time Warner 24 hour cable stations. They're ALL run like small market outfits. At one particular top 30 attempt, they were hiring reporters with a year's experience in 100+ markets and photogs and producers with no experience at all. Some of those reporters were making half what new hires at the other stations were making and still thought they had hit the big time.

Those outfits are generally considered a joke.

I think I almost took a job at that 'attempt' before they pulled the plug on it (after being assured by the GM that they were in it 'for the long run'). Seemed like a sure thing: brand new, state-of-the-art facility built especially for the 24-hr venture, lots of capital invested. 3 weeks after I turned down the job, they closed the shop! (NOTE: this was a partnership with Belo, so I certainly am not alluding that this new Buffalo shop will close soon. But Spike is dead right....these shops hire for well below market value, BUT they are the only way some newer folks can break into said market. )

[BHM]

OnTheRebound,

Are you saying that there IS reality preached in schools and newer TV-employees-to-be know what to expect, OR they are seeing how successful they can be much more quickly than in the past?

I am reading a mixed message in your post: I see you saying that some students see that they can move up quickly (albeit for MUCH lower salaries), but I also see you saying how people are feeling duped and you are not in a good place 10 years in (mother comment).


Well, it depends on what YOU consider reality. My professor claiming ONLY any and all attractive minorities are guaranteed jobs has never been my reality; nor obviously was it for all my gainfully employed white peers. And that, along with the "business is going to hell in a handbasket" speeches were fairly prevalent back in the class of 2000.

However, in my DMA-- I and other professionals or professors can talk about how bad it is in the industry until I'm blue in the face--- but when
"Suzy Co-ed" flips on the evening news and sees that her sorority sister, who just graduated two semesters ago, is a reporter OR the MAIN anchor in a medium market with no small market experience or relatively little experience--the tendency is to think it really can't be that bad. Also, instead of making 15K in some podunk town a lot of these newbies are getting paid in the low 20's to live somewhere fairly cool, so they still tend to think they are getting a good deal. AND again, MOST think that someday t.v. salaries will go up eventually OR they will be the exception to the rule.

I just don't think you can discount the idea, that at 23, getting a job right out of school (or seeing someone get that job) that you heard some 40 year vet or professor drone on and on about how they had to plug away at some horrible station in a miserable town for decades before they got that kind of job, is kind of an ego boost and appealing to some regardless of the reasoning.

So, yes, they see t.v. as an industry where you can now move up pretty quickly if you want, even if you are not paid well.

When I was in school it was just starting to be acknowledged that not everyone had to start in a small market anymore, because we just had too many grads getting reporter jobs in markets that typically didn't hire beginners. BUT, at the same time it was still pretty much thought that you had to be exceptional (or very attractive) to do so and you certainly were not going to be a main anchor somewhere right out of the gate with little experience. Even, in a very small market.

Perhaps, what also sounds like a mixed message(or just confusing) to you (because I certainly feel that it is to me) is that at a lot of mid market stations, 30-somethings are the "old timers". Only one female reporter at my station is older than I am, by a few years. And anyone over 35 ( all males here) feels like they are on borrowed time. They fully expect their contracts will not be renewed and we've seen examples of it happening already. We have no more double digit years of experience employees except our GM and News Director and chief meteorologist. It wasn't the case here just 5 years ago. That's how fast it changed.

So,when I am talking about "youngsters" I am not including myself in the mix. Nor, am I including my friends who have left-- because by management standards they are/were people considered too old (at 30 something with between 5-10 years of experience) and making too much money (at 35-40K) to advance their careers here or in comparable markets. And we know how tough the competition is to get jobs in larger markets.

Most worked in small markets and were constantly told to "wait" or to get "more seasoning" to get certain positions and NOW suddenly they are out of the running for those same positions because their relatively little experience costs too much.

Honestly, at my station anyone over 28 with more than three years experience, feels like they have been given the shaft ALREADY for people who are younger than they are in some way. Too many examples to recount here.

When the main anchor is 24, got the job with less than a year of reporting experience --any other woman with more experience who was passed over for the job (self included) doesn't really feel like they have anywhere to go (as far as career mobility at this station) BUT all the new female reporters coming in, feel like they could be on the desk in no time flat. Same situation with our interns. All of them think they will be entry level reporters at our station or a competitor. They are probably right.

I'm not sure these younger people will feel duped like the 30-somethings because they are starting at a different point. The only analogy that comes to mind is the difference a person feels when their first car at 16 is a an expensive sports car VERSUS how you feel when you have to start at 16 with the clunker and can only aspire to the sports car...but then they just stop making sports cars altogether, just as you've saved up enough money to get one.

[overthehill]

Charlie Brown:

As someone who's in college classrooms speaking to would-be TV news/sports/weather people...we DO give them the reality of what's going in in the larger outside world.

In fact, I told my students this week, that they face the absolute worst job environment I've seen in 30+ years in the broadcast business. Despite their best intentions, the jobs just aren't there, except for a lucky few who arrive at the exact right station at the exact right moment as an opening occurs.

We show them examples in our own community, at the local affiliates near the university. We point out the tight job market and layoffs at stations and media companies in larger cities, the chains.

Sure some of these college students aren't listening to us and won't get it until they knock on the door of the NDs office...but it IS being said in classrooms.

We've told them to hold-on to their dreams...to face reality...and consider postponing a career in TV until the economy improves.

[Gail sirens]

Wow. A serious thread with real information.
Is this Medialine?
At many J-schools it's not in their best interest to dissuade students, since their jobs depend upon enrollment.
There are just so many wannabes, and most are never going to make a career out of it. Young gals, who used to major in elementary education, are now going into this business in droves.
I think it has to start with the parents, and they need to talk some sense into the kids, that they will still be looking for work work in their 30's and beyond.
Not a good scenario for the kids.
It's nice to read thoughtful replies.

[wx or not]

I think it has to start with the parents, and they need to talk some sense into the kids, that they will still be looking for work work in their 30's and beyond.
Not only does it start with the parents, it needs to continue with the parents, even if the kids have moved away. Maturity levels among today's grads doesn't seem as high as in years past; I fear that many grads are not fully prepared for life's ups and downs.
I'm also worried that too many students watch these commercials at face value, you know the ones: Ohio Centers for Broadcasting, etc. that all seem to slather icing on a difficult career. These ads promote how easy it is to get into broadcasting (yet never seem to offer any stats on their placement rates) and how easy it is to earn money right away. It's not right, and it's not what our kids need to hear. That's where the parents should return and counsel where appropriate.

[TAFKA wacowx]

It absolutely needs to start with the parents since a lot of these jouranlism schools are expensive (not that any college is cheap, per se) and the cost AFTER the sale (student loans) will be crippling on a TV salary. Not just a newbie TV salary either. Payments on a $50-75K loan will make it tough to have much of a standard of living on a $20K-$30K salary. For engineers and others who start at 3 times the salary after college, it's a no-brainer. But going into jouranlism/TV...the reality of not being able to afford most colleges after the fact, should be preached by the parents. The unfortunate thing, I feel, is that the general public still feels that this is a lucrative business so reality won't set-in until halfway through college if lucky, or on that first job hunt. :(

If you are going to college for a degree in a field, then ideally the job choice/career should pay enough to justify the cost. In TV journalism it ABSOLUTELY does not. Most will make the same or more money in food service or some office job with no need for an expensive degree.

[SamG]

How is a parent supposed to know about the pay/poor hours/etc in journalism?

[Gil]

How is a parent supposed to know about the pay/poor hours/etc in journalism?

It has only happened a couple of times, but I have had parents make appointments with me to discuss the opportunities in broadcast journalism for their high school aged child. I don't know what effect my comments had on the student's decision, but I tried to be very thorough in explaining the opportunities and the limitations.

[FrontierMan]

I went to a top J school. My professors were former network reporters, former executive producers for shows like "Oprah," and former NDs in top markets. They were very realistic about the business, but we all refused to listen. The school required us to have a second major, and professors encouraged us to pick majors we could fall back on, but we all chose majors that were an easy way to fill the second major requirement.

Back in the late 90's professors told us we'd be broke, and the biz was on the decline, but the dream of being on TV meant more to us.

All my college friends who are reporters and anchors today regret not listening. Heck, I regret it.

As for parents, my mom and dad paid my rent for an entire year when I got my first reporting job in a small market. My parents just wanted to help me because they saw how hard I worked to fulfill the dream. Now I resent my parents for helping me the way they did, but now I guess they were proud of me and wanted to help me succeed.

Kids keep getting into the business because they're obsessed with it, the way we were. Can we blame them for being so dumb?

Now I'm jobless and trying to pursue other things. I regret getting into TV news, but it sure is a conversation kit when I talk about my travels in TV news.

My final word of advice: COLLEGE KIDS, DON'T DO IT!

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

I think at minimum....J-schools need to start strongly pushing the multi-task scenario. USC had us all one-man band our stories before omb'ing was showing it's ugly head in the industry. But I'd take it further...maybe emphasizing(along with low pay) combo's....like Anchor/Producer/Editor as one job....or One-man band/web reporter as one job.
It is a tough question though.....How do you teach a profession that is showing strong signs of permanent downsizing?
It wouldn't hurt for some current managers to get some preaching on the multi-media world as well....

[Charlie Brown]

as far as parents go...it's admirable to think of the scenario wherein mom and dad sit junior down for a talk in the living room by the fireplace and gently explaining to them why they shouldn't follow their dreams and what the other more stable, better paying options are and junior actually listening to them.

But we all know that's not reality. Think back to when you were a college student - if mom and dad told you not to do something, you wanted to do it more. And unless your parents themselves were broadcast journalists who have the war stories as exhibit A, B and C on what life is like in this business, or (as was mentioned earlier in this thread) they threaten to pull the plug on your college career unless you make a change, you're going to push headstrong into the future, fully convinced that you'd regret it more if you didn't do it than you did.

OTH, you know the respect I have for you and your expertise, and I didn't mean my original post as a slap in the face to you or anyone else. What I was saying is that even if the message is being preached from those at the top, it's likely falling on deaf ears.

[JJ]

I think I almost took a job at that 'attempt' before they pulled the plug on it (after being assured by the GM that they were in it 'for the long run'). Seemed like a sure thing: brand new, state-of-the-art facility built especially for the 24-hr venture, lots of capital invested. 3 weeks after I turned down the job, they closed the shop! (NOTE: this was a partnership with Belo, so I certainly am not alluding that this new Buffalo shop will close soon. But Spike is dead right....these shops hire for well below market value, BUT they are the only way some newer folks can break into said market. )

Spike...Standing ovation my friend...applause/applause !

TAFKA...sounds like you interviewed at the same place I did, although I think I predated you. Mr. A-M...a former ND, now a GM at that place ? I didn’t mind the people and all, but really, do you want to do weather throwing tosses to a harddrive ? Granted, the talent on TV has gone downhill over the years, for all kinds of reasons, but that’s as much fun as watching paint dry. No, all that quantity, no quality in live talent work and the focus on the wrong things, no, not for me.

To throw them a bone, yes, they have their place, I guess, like voicejail on the phone. It’s great for reporters to cut their teeth banging out prerecorded packages, which even the networks do after all, but if you love LIVE talent, including in the studio and conversational style...no, it’s a barren wasteland. And, if I hear ‘free cable’ one more time, I’m gonna lose it. Don’t wanna talk money, sure...I’ll deal with gold or shares of Google stock. But, cable barter as the end all to be all doesn’t cut it.

Done with ramble...sorry.

[TAFKA wacowx]

Charlie Brown,

One of the reasons I did gravitate toward my career WAS the thought that it would be lucritive. If some one had told me the realities of it, I would have probably thought long and hard about what I really wanted to do. In my senior year, I fluctuated between biochemistry, electrical engineering and meteorology. At least I got a full-fledged meteo degree that has allowed me to work in the private sector and make a lot more money that TV ever paid me.

Most of us really have no concept early on, that we may not be able to afford our bills when we are finally out on our own. I always thought that I would be able to not only pay my bills certainly, but have enough left over to buy some nice things and start making a life for myself on my own. that really didn't occur for me until I was working for nearly 10 years...and even now I am living well below my means to pay off credit card debt.

I am just saying that if the realities of choice of career vs. salary vs. expected cost of living were explained early enough, those who are on the fence would make the right choice and pursue something that would serve them better in their lives.

[wx or not]

I am just saying that if the realities of choice of career vs. salary vs. expected cost of living were explained early enough, those who are on the fence would make the right choice and pursue something that would serve them better in their lives.
And that is where it comes full circle...it is the parents' responsibility to inform their kids. They don't have to come down hard, or be completely negative. All parents need to do is to INFORM their kids of potential hardships, even if the kids won't listen.
I was lucky. I got a geology degree with a minor in forecast science. And that was due to my father, who let me know that, should anything ever happen in one field, I may have a chance at another. He never demeaned my choice, nor did he try to dissuade me from pursuing it. He just let me know the facts of: costs, time involved to obtain a decent pay level, and potential conflicts (from his contacts across the nation). My first on-air job was due to having both fields, due to the location of the station. As time went on, I used my BS to obtain an MBA. Now that I'm out, I am thankful for my dad's words of encouragement.

[BHM]

Unlike a lot of journalists; I was actually really good at math and science. I took AP Calculus and Physics even though I went to a performing arts high school.

My dad really pushed engineering because 1)he was an engineer and 2)he felt I could move up quickly and make more money in a field where there are few women and minorities. However, he also took me to work with him a lot as a child and I saw how boring his day was, LOL.

I worked at a commercial radio station co-hosting and producing a news talk show, while in school. Him hearing me on the air made him get off my back. He thought I had talent and a good work ethic and that would be enough to make up for what he heard about journalism being a "dead-end salary" field for most people.

Well, I think he was right about being an engineer, LOL. I often think that as much as I would have hated 5 years of upper level chemistry, math and physics, etc. I should have listened and went for that degree even if I did still try the t.v thing.

I had a friend who was a mechanical engineer who decided to be a fashion designer. It was not necessarily an easy career change, but after just working in engineering 5 years (no student loans and starting salary of around $55K, which she quickly doubled with a few company moves in just a few years) she had amassed a huge savings account and 401 K which enabled her to live in NYC fairly comfortably while she took design classes. Well, the design thing didn't work out, so now she's going back to engineering. Of course, her parents could never understand why anyone would leave a $100K+ job at 29.

But ---before college her parents told her to GO FOR THE MONEY, SCREW what you think you LIKE to do. They are immigrants (not sure if that has something to do with their attitude) and considered liking your job a luxury for the wealthy and well connected. She took an engineering scholarship even though she knew she really didn't want to be an engineer just to go to school for free.

That way is definitely contrary to what most parents of this generation and the preceding tell/told their kids. Who doesn't know someone paying full tuition sending their C- student to an Ivy League or other top tier school for a liberal arts degree in something they will be "happy" doing? Or people taking out $80K loans to get a degree for a job that will only pay $22k?

My dad told me he became an engineer and worked for the government because his father told him to pick a career field always in demand; with good benefits; a salary that increases over time and to work for an agency that rarely fires people. My dad really wanted to be a football coach. My mom picked her field in medicine for a similar reason. She wanted to be a writer.

I think a lot parents 1)may not be aware of the reality of t.v for long term employment and 2) are more commonly allowing kids to pick fields for enjoyment and personal fulfillment RATHER than focusing on the hard economic truths even when they know them.

[Gil]

I have three adult children. Two are teachers; one works in television. I worry most about just one.

[Clubbeat]

well...two questions - are j-schools actually preaching the reality that what once were long odds to get an on air job paying a decent wage are now seemingly impossible (although if I can do it, well it's possible) and two, do any of the current crop of j-school students care?

Judging by this board and this board alone, I'm not sure they do. They see the veterans coming around here grumbling about the state of the business and think "they're just trying to scare off their younger, hotter competition. I'm the future of journalism and I'm gonna show them how to do it!".

The sentiment among this semesters grads is that they're going to settle to work for whoever hires them. Money is important, but getting in the door and beginning their careers is more important at this stage.

Many are also looking at graduate school. They figure the two plus years or so it takes on average to finish a graduate school degree will give the economy enough time to rebound.

Some are also considering working in production for a while. We've got a few of our grads this semester getting hired to work as editors, shooters etc at various media outlets.

I think a lot of grads will be in better shape than some vets simply because stations will and do hire newbies for a lot less that they would have to pay experienced folks.

What we train our students to do is to make sure they're versatile. With broadcast newsrooms, newspapers and radio all using the web as part of their delivery systems, our students understand that they must be highly proficient in all areas of journalism, including shooting, editing and writing for the web. In today's marketplace, in our business, it's all convergence.

[overthehill]

Clubbeat is 100% correct.

No matter the reality we've been sharing with university students in the classroom, the depressing revelations haven't shaken their determination to make it. Yes Charlie Brown, they may not be listening as well as we think, but some think they can beat the economy and system. More power to them if they can.

I'll agree that, here in the Midwest, more undergrads are thinking graduate school, advanced degrees, teaching certificates and even law school or other professional schools to avoid facing the tough economy and a job hunt right now.

I also see a spate of student broadcasters eager to jump into production jobs, esp sports production. Maybe it's the Big Ten Channel or increased video coverage of college athletics on our campus. but I've seen an amazing surge of students who really don't want to be on air (in sports no less).

[Clubbeat]

...our economic downtown is a cycle. It's happened before. Maybe not as bad as now (depending on who you ask) but our economy will rebound. It's also not going to happen anytime soon, but I expect within the next two years. (provided we don't experience some sort of major catastrophic event).

That being stated, I tell my students, and both of my college age kids, that being able to do more than one thing will help you keep from being downsized or laid off.

If all you know how do do is one or two things in your professional life (no matter what field you're in), then you're limiting yourself.

Parents and those who deal with young adults should be giving them advice on their career choices and how they should have a back-up plan in place. I worked retail on and off when TV news jobs were scarce in the early to mid 80's. I was able to work my way up the food chain to become a department then store manager through the training I received at the various retail outlets that I worked.

It paid off. It allowed me to continue to work as a journalist and helped me secure several news room management positions. It wasn't easy, the retail hours sucked (day after Thanksgiving, Christmas open 'till midnight, working weekends etc) but it helped me gain some valuable experience in learning how to manage and dealing with the public.

Again, the key is to be versatile, especially in today's digital market.

[SamG]

That being stated, I tell my students, and both of my college age kids, that being able to do more than one thing will help you keep from being downsized or laid off.

If all you know how do do is one or two things in your professional life (no matter what field you're in), then you're limiting yourself.

My boss and I were just talking about this... It's amazing (especially the ways things are going now) that employees (new & old) aren't BEGGING to learn new things. I would think when these layoffs are happening, they're not personal (Joe Smith isn't doing a good job), but a position needs to be eliminated and 'Joe Smith knows how to write', but 'Jane Smith knows how to write, edit, and take in feeds'. Who's going to keep their job?

[gdiamante]

It has only happened a couple of times, but I have had parents make appointments with me to discuss the opportunities in broadcast journalism for their high school aged child. I don't know what effect my comments had on the student's decision, but I tried to be very thorough in explaining the opportunities and the limitations.


If only all parents were as conscientious about helping their children plan their future.

I had a younger cousin who majored in journalism and was certain she'd get a job in Boston right out of college. No one would believe me when I told them her chances were slim and none. Not my cousin, not her parents, not her grandparents.

She *did* get a job in the Boston area...as a teacher.

[Clubbeat]

I call them "Pipe Dreamers". Those are the ones who expect to get a reporting job or worse, an on-air position at some entertainment or music network right out of school. When you try to tell them about waiting their turn and paying your dues, they do the proverbial finger in the ears and sing lalala like they do not hear you.

Then like your cousin, they graduate and get out here and discover that their dreams are being put on hold, thanks to a hard dose of reality.

Fortunately, I've only run across a few of them who act like that.

[Another side]

This thread seems awash in posts that suggest a sense of entitlement -- that if you get a college degree it should entitle you to begin to earn a comfortable living immediately upon graduation.

And that if you can't readily earn a salary that justifies the cost of your education, then you probably haven't thought things through. Moreover, parents should be hauled in to shore up the argument that thier son or daughter should eschew journailism because of its lack of immediate rewards.

There's also advice -- good, I think -- that goes one should shoot for two degrees. Where we differ is it's proposed not as a way of supporting thier journalism career, but as a "fall-back" should the rewards or opportunities in journalism disappear ... to have it available when it's time to give-up on what they really want to do.

I'm not going to take you through the boring career steps of a now-retired journalist.

But I am going to suggest that there is value for young people to start at the bottom, to work part-time jobs in order to pay the rent and afford a box of noodles for dinner ... to commit to something that, particularly in today's economic world, requires sacrifice and hard work as much as education, experience and training.

You have to WANT journalism ... it owes you nothing.

There is an argument out there, and I forgot who first offered it (but it was someone a hell-of-a-lot more thoughtful than I) that one of the things that have had the most negative impact on the Democracy is the relative high salaries of many journalists, print and electronic, who work on the front lines -- anchors, reporters and columnists with large followings and huge name-recognition.

Not because of their perceived (or documented) bias or favortism ... but because they are no longer in touch with those who need their information and analyses the most. They no longer share a beer at the corner bar, play golf on the municipal courses, send their kids to public schools, shop at the local market or get thir kids swimming lessons or tennis instruction through the local tax-supported recreations districts.

They've outgrown their audiences, risen above them, into private schools, members-only golf courses, swim and tennis lessons through the local country club, eat out at high-dollar steakhouses or other "fine-dining" establishments that -- if there's any shelf-life left in the past political season's would-be example of everyday life -- Joe the Plumber is unfamiliar with.

I don't know how true that is, or if true, whether it's fair to criticize. We all want to improve our lot ... but it DOES have unintended consequences, no question -- They have lost their humility, and that can't be good.

It is clear in my mind that I would be considered a bad parent to many of you, because whether it was journalism or any other field, my counsel to my five kids would be (two have gone into nursing, one into industrial mechanics, two still at home) "follow your heart, pay your dues, work hard, and you'll get where you want to go. You'll starve along the way, but that's OK; it's part of the price."

Journalism will wear you out, and the idea of "success' can be measured many different ways. As I said once, you've got to want it, and you have to be willing to sacrifice, work hard, take your lumps, and measure your progress in what your contributions mean, not dollars -- they're there, and they'll come ... just not now.

And I'll admit ... I have an old-fashioned, different standard, but I really see no other reasonable choice -- the only one presented was by Spike ... to become bitter, angry and resentful of his former profession to the extent he continually voices a total disrespect for it and the people who are involved in it now, or who are considering it for the future. My hunch is, he'll be saying the same thing about auditors and CPAs in just a few short years.

[Clever Login Name]

The problem is a very precious few WANT journalism ... the rest want to be on TeeVee, basking in all the accolades and limelight they imagine comes with such a career.

Which is precisely why it's difficult for parents/mentors/professors to inject any kind of reality into their mindset. While a few might get lucky and succeed, they are the exception.

To the rest, whose dreams of stardom lead them down a path that ultimately ends ruinously for them, I have no sympathy at all.

[TAFKA wacowx]

I think that in MANY industries, the cost of a college education will make it extemely difficult to pay back college loans. Look toward the next major issue (psuedo 'crash') being with student loans. I think many, many formerly qualifiable students will not be able to get loans for many private colleges. I would hope that this forces said colleges to lower their tuition.

Going to just about ANY college right now is a larger percentage of a person's yearly salary than ever before. The price of college/university has beaten the COL every year for at least the last 2 decades. One would think that this can't be sustained.

It saddens me to think that a degree which could have been gotten from a state university 20 years ago for $20K for 4 years, now costs $50-60K...with ivy league schools in the hundreds of thousands. Average salaries sure haven't doubled in ANY industry of note, but the cost to get a college degree has more than doubled.

EDIT: Found a graphic to back me up from THIS CNN story (http://money.cnn.com/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/index.htm?postversion=2008082214).

"Given the steep price tag for a Wesleyan degree ($200,000 for four years) and the substantial amount you may have borrowed to pay those bills ($21,500 for the average student, with some families carrying loans of $50,000 or more), choosing a profession that often pays less than $30,000 a year might be, well, let's just say a bit of a financial challenge. "

http://i.l.cnn.net/money/2008/08/20/pf/college/college_price.moneymag/higher_education.gif

[Gail sirens]

The problem is a very precious few WANT journalism ... the rest want to be on TeeVee, basking in all the accolades and limelight they imagine comes with such a career.

Which is precisely why it's difficult for parents/mentors/professors to inject any kind of reality into their mindset. While a few might get lucky and succeed, they are the exception.

To the rest, whose dreams of stardom lead them down a path that ultimately ends ruinously for them, I have no sympathy at all.

Yes, it's the "You Tube" generation.
They all think it's easy money to be on tv as a reporter, anchor, host, whatever, because they put their vids on you tube.
Parents generally are the ones paying for the education and they need to be sure to they communicate with the kiddies that choosing a career path is serious business.
It starts way before the senior year of h.s.
And anyone who is paying for college themselves with loans needs to do some research.
The information is out there and not hard to find.
And isn't it amazing how many don't really want to work behind the scenes; they just take those jobs so they can get a tape together and get an 'in" at a place, and report.
So, yes, they do just want to be on tv.

[TAFKA wacowx]

Yes, it's the "You Tube" generation.
They all think it's easy money to be on tv as a reporter, anchor, host, whatever, because they put their vids on you tube.

Do these 'kiddies' get paid for placing their videos on YouTube? If not, then I fail to see why this would equate to them expecting to make easy money in TV.:confused:

[wx or not]

I've decided, much earlier, that if my son wants to go to J-school, or get a met degree, I will first ask him what it is he wants to get from it. If, at any point, he mentions air time, he will discover that there are fundamentals to be completed first. In light of that, he will have to learn how to read, write and think critically, as if he were to become a newspaper journalist. With so many competing levels of intelligence that challenge today's youth (from viewers who don't take the time to understand basic facts, to scientists who try to further their climatology agendas). It's not the same world anymore; my son may not want to hear it, but he sure as heck will understand that I'm concerned for his well-being.

[Diggin' Bear]

I find it interesting that Vernon Stone or somebody like that at Mizzou hasn't done a study on the average life span of a new/veteran reporter, in connection to the salary info he/they supply.

Like Clubbeat, I'm one of the people who's jumped in and out of the TV world from time to time. I'm out right now but I may want to get back in one day even though I've landed in a huge bed of roses!

I'm curious as to what's going to happen to the 'journalism' people keep bringing up. It looks to me like the locals don't care about 'journalism' as much any more, and probably won't unless they see a serious decline in revenue AND that serious decline in revenue is proved to be tied to the lack of substance.

We've all seen that lack of substance - as supplied by our cable brethern. The 24 hour news cycle has caused a need for more heat - repeatedly applied because of the program need - as opposed to 'light,' also known as painstaking, long term, investigative work that pays off with a real story.

The simple truth is - the scream a thon (I blame O'Reilly and Olbermann, et al) or the canned media release turned package is cheaper, faster, more dependable (call it efficiency!) and the public buys it as 'journalism.'

It's a sickening state of affairs. And now, having written that...I wonder if I really want to get back in one day.

[Gail sirens]

Do these 'kiddies' get paid for placing their videos on YouTube? If not, then I fail to see why this would equate to them expecting to make easy money in TV.:confused:

Because they do it for free on you tube, how great is it to actually get PAID to do it for real!!!!
Doesn't matter if they get paid very little.
That's the logic that I hear.

[Basically A Nice Guy]

Yes, it's the "You Tube" generation.
I have seen the future of the resume tape, and it is YouTube.

[Produce man]

Ah yes...and finally the obvious from the Obvious. How's it going Dyckerson?

"Produce is my _itch" indeed. Clean up your language twerp.Grow up, twerp.

[Another side]

The problem is a very precious few WANT journalism ... the rest want to be on TeeVee, basking in all the accolades and limelight they imagine comes with such a career.

Which is precisely why it's difficult for parents/mentors/professors to inject any kind of reality into their mindset. While a few might get lucky and succeed, they are the exception.

To the rest, whose dreams of stardom lead them down a path that ultimately ends ruinously for them, I have no sympathy at all.

Good point ... I agree. I wish I'd have included it.

[BHM]

{{[QUOTE=Another side;499762]This thread seems awash in posts that suggest a sense of entitlement -- that if you get a college degree it should entitle you to begin to earn a comfortable living immediately upon graduation.

And that if you can't readily earn a salary that justifies the cost of your education, then you probably haven't thought things through. Moreover, parents should be hauled in to shore up the argument that thier son or daughter should eschew journailism because of its lack of immediate rewards.}}

I think people are saying THINK LONG AND HARD about pursuing journalism because of the STRONG possibility of the lack of LONG TERM reward and increasingy limited shelf life regardless of qualifications, talent, or work ethic.

I have NEVER felt that I was ENTITLED to anything. Unlike how most of my generation is stereotyped; I believe in hard work. I have never coasted. And perhaps my lament, is at this point, standard repetition for anyone who works in the business more than 5 years.

I don't think busting your butt, working every holiday; 14 and 15 day stretches sometimes (AND NOT NECESSARILY for major news gathering reasons, but because of poor scheduling decisions ) doing dozens of hours of community service and other appearances on behalf of your stations; working weekends, volunteering to cover shifts; AND winning awards and contributing in the best way you can to the product each and every day...and then hoping that after SEVERAL years of this, you will at least be paid a salary commensurate with your level of experience, is at all indicative of a sense of entitlement. And at the very most after doing this; I would think you could be promoted, not demoted or held stagnant because promoting someone else who hasn't put in the work you have is cheaper.

I never thought I would get rich. However, I did think after 10 years I could be paid 50K. Really, that was my goal. That would be sufficient for my quality of life expecations.

I'm an anchor/reporter (soon to also be show producer as a cost saving measure) and even though I would not turn down a mega salary if someone offered it to me---I have never felt entitled to it. I long conceded being treated fairly or with respect by any given management regime; I'd just like to make 50K.

In truth, even if I had gotten a second degree, it would have likely been in education. Not a road to riches path there either, even though starting salaries and benefits are much better than t.v. journalists in a lot of states. My brother topped my second t.v. job salary with his first teaching contract position.

In summary, If I am doing my job well and consistently exceeding expectations; getting excellent performance reviews, etc in ANY field; I would expect that over time my standing would improve or I would consider leaving. That's where I am now with television news.

When I first started, I was told if you don't hit your goal in 10 years, get out. I'm two years from that now. Now I am hearing people say, if you don't hit your goal in 5 years, get out. That really saddens me.

[BHM]

I talk from the perspective of an on-air person, obviously, which I am sure stereotypes me as someone who just wants to be on t.v. especially since I am young. I don't think I need to defend myself or justify my choice BUT I did want to point out I think this affects everyone in a newsroom at some point in the current climate.

I mentioned how I will soon be producing my own show. I was a producer before I became a reporter.So it's not a problem for me from the stand point of my ability or desire to do that job--other than I'm not getting paid anymore for the extra work--but it's another illustration of how shelf life for positions is decreasing. We have eliminated three producer jobs in just the last year. The show producer whose job I am absorbing has been having a tough time finding a new job as many stations are doing what we are doing. He joked to me that he was obviously misinformed in college. He said he became a producer because professors said he would have a longer and more stable career as a newscast producer than as a reporter.

[TAFKA wacowx]

In summary, If I am doing my job well and consistently exceeding expectations; getting excellent performance reviews, etc in ANY field; I would expect that over time my standing would improve or I would consider leaving.

This, I think, sums up exactly what is wrong with television right now and why I got out last year. Instead of consistent and substantial bonuses and raises for a job well done, I got increased workloads and no hope of any additional help to take over the blossoming workload. To be fair, I did get raises, but, like you, I also never made it to 50K in TV after 11 years in the business in one way or another. I now am close to double that in my current job, with plenty of thanks form managers, merit raises and bonuses and the like. I wish TV could be like that too, but there are just SO MANY going into the field that it has oversaturated it, and companies CAN, and will, pay peanuts. I can't see any possible way this can turn around, even when the economy improves, hence I watch the business from afar.

I pray that you do get your $50K...it's really not that much to ask.

[wx or not]

This, I think, sums up exactly what is wrong with television right now and why I got out last year. Instead of consistent and substantial bonuses and raises for a job well done, I got increased workloads and no hope of any additional help to take over the blossoming workload.
After so many years, I noticed that degreed, salaried mets were being challenged by increased workload AND treated as hourly wage employees. In light of that, it seemed that as you performed your duties, if you exceeded expectations, THAT level of performance became the next bar for the following review. If you can exceed the new bar, we'll not only let you keep your current job, but we'll pay you a little more. A little.

[Another side]

When I first started, I was told if you don't hit your goal in 10 years, get out. I'm two years from that now. Now I am hearing people say, if you don't hit your goal in 5 years, get out. That really saddens me.

Yep ... times change. And I'll repeat: You gotta want it.

I was fortunate in that I moved from print to broadcast and started at $44,000, which was sufficient at the time. My issue wasn't money; my issue was control ... I wanted more of it over the final news product, which meant management.

And when I looked around, I realized I had virtually no competition -- all the others were perfectly happy being a reporter, a producer, a photographer ... you get the idea. They liked their niche, and only hoped to move into a bigger shop some day. Suited me -- I had a clear shot to my goal; all I had to do was perform. And I performed like a Banchee.

My point is, when your only goal is money, you throw yourself in with most everyone else ... and there's only so many who are going to achieve it in the same location.

Of course, that's even more true today with stations cutting back ... but you've been forced into realizing that.

The problem with a money goal, is that to succeed, you have to have a handle on the employer's limits, when you've reached that limit, and when it's time to move in hopes of meeting your goal. And, naturally, the employers' limits could change year-to-year, if not quarter-to-quarter.

I still insist ... and your not too old (I did it) ... if you deteremine what it is you really want to do in television and what you can best offer television, and make that your goal, the the money will come, even today. You'll have to earn it, you'll have to fight for it, you'll have to turn a deaf ear to the naysayers ... but it's there.

The only option you have is to settle ... and if you're not willing to move (assuming the employer is unable or unwilling to help you make your money goal) then you have to settle.

And in my book, "settleing" was never an option. I wanted it BAD.

Good luck in whatever you decide.

[JoshNYNews]

With regard to the Buffalo start-up mid-thread, the shop will not be doing weather from that studio, it will be done here at the Syracuse hub. It will be a seperate entity like R News and will not be a bureau. I dont know if we have decided on if the Buffalo station will have its own bureaus...but at least starting out it wont be as large as News 10.