Obama/Biden '08

[Murphy Brown 2003]

In the stupidest political move, Obama snubs Hillary's 18 million voters by not even vetting her financial records. Way to win over those 46% percent of Clinton supporters who've said they won't vote for him.

[Kace]

Okay...

[Nanook of the North]

I didn't even get my text message! And I hear it on medialine first...okay, I'm going to vote for McCain now.




















NOT!

[Murphy Brown 2003]

I don't think he's sent the text message. ABC News is reporting that the U.S. Secret Service is en route to Biden's home.

[Spike]

No! Murphy whining about Obama again? It couldn't be!

[Kace]

All things considered, wouldn't having the Secret Service headed towards your home make you a bit nervous?

[buckpasser]

CNN tries to break this one.

"CNN Confims Joe Biden has been offered, and has accepted".

11:44pm Central

Edited to Add: They've been breaking all night long. "People I trust incredibly", in the Obama campaign were the sources. Two of them to CNN reporter John King. Text message early morning.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

No! Murphy whining about Obama again? It couldn't be!

Wouldn't want to let you down there, Spikey. His let-me-text-you-my-VP shenanigans this week deserved more than I had time to give. Now that CNN has confirmed that Joe Biden is Obama's BFF, we can move on to discussing the pros and cons of plagiarism.

[Kace]

There you go again, Buckpasser, talking about Republi....oh...nevermind. ;)

[sun dog]

"Following Sen. Hillary Clinton's statement that presidential nominating contests have historically lasted late into the calendar year, citing the June 1968 assassination of Robert F. Kennedy as one example (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/05/23/politics/main4124537.shtml), an observer said the comment probably dooms any chance that she would be picked for the number two position by frontrunner Sen. Barack Obama.

"'This probably means the end of her campaign,' said David Mark, senior editor of Politico.com (http://www.politico.com/), on The Early Show. 'She was already treading on pretty thin ice. To raise the specter of a tragic event like an assassination, this probably ends any vice presidential hopes she had.'"

http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/05...y4125330.shtml (http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2008/05/24/politics/horserace/entry4125330.shtml)


"Clinton’s comments came amid reports that Bill Clinton and others were advocating an Obama-Clinton ticket. Both campaigns vehemently denied that such discussions were taking place. But the dust-up over the RFK remarks could seriously jeopardize whatever chances she may have had to be the vice presidential nominee, Democratic strategists and others said.

"'My jaw just dropped – I think she just basically shattered her hopes of being named as vice president,' said New York state Sen. Bill Perkins, one of Obama’s top backers in Clinton’s home state. 'To use the example of an assassination, I think, leads one to believe that she may be talking about something unfortunate happening to Barack Obama. Couple that with the other remarks she made recently about winning the white vote and her husband’s statements and I’d say something is seriously amiss.'"

http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may...n/na-clinton24 (http://articles.latimes.com/2008/may/24/nation/na-clinton24)


"[Keith] Olbermann queries: 'Those words, Senator? You actually invoked the nightmare of political assassination? You actually invoked the specter of an inspirational leader at the seeming moment of triumph for himself and a battered nation, yearning to breathe free, silenced forever? You actually use the word 'assassination' in the middle of a campaign with a loud undertone of racial hatred and gender hatred and political hatred? You actually use the word 'assassination' in a time when there is a fear, unspoken but vivid and terrible, that our again troubled land and fractured political landscape might target a black man running for President? Or a white man? Or a white woman?'"

"As June 5th, the 40th anniversary of Senator Kennedy's assassination, approaches, Olbermann finds Clinton's remarks particularly insensitive when compounded with Senator Edward Kennedy's recent diagnosis with a malignant brain tumor. The invocation itself and its timing, Olbermann opines, '[open] a door wide into the soul of somebody who seeks the highest office in this country, and through that door shows something not merely troubling, but frightening.' The entire speech, as broadcast on MSNBC's Countdown with Keith Olbermann on May 23, 2008, is available to view below."

http://www.blinkx.com/video/enraged-...oaKBFIpPy6UrUA (http://www.blinkx.com/video/enraged-olbermann-hillary-rfk-invocation-unforgivable/O5LoqbFzoaKBFIpPy6UrUA)

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Nice montage of armchair analysts and Obama backers there. I notice the report you didn't include was the one from The Argus Leader. You know, the paper she was giving the interview to at the time, the editorial board that came to her defense and said it was exaggerated in the national press. Hmm, let's see, Obama supporters, including so-called "press" vs. people who were there to hear the comments first-hand? Hmm.

Obama's arrogance is going to kill him in the polls. He's an attention ***** and this week proved it.

[Kace]

Wait...

Did I just see a Buckpasser post disappear only to reappear as a Lerxst post?

[Kace]

Nice montage of armchair analysts and Obama backers there

And Olbermann, don't forget him. :)

[buckpasser]

MEDIALINE FLASHBACK.....July 18, 2008

Wait. How do I quote myself?

O.K. here we go...

Earlier this year, I predicted Richardson.

I'm gonna change my mind, and say Biden.

I was sitting at dinner on Friday night, talkin' politics with my buddy, my wife, and three other women. When we mentioned VPs, certain names gave lukewarm responses.

Bayh: "Who is he?"
Richardson: "Yeah..I guess"
Biden: "OHHH I LIKE HIM!!!"

Plus, my mom likes him. I think he'll pull in the womens vote...BIG TIME. He's been a credible, vocal critic of the Bush adminstration foreign policy, so he's got street cred in that area.

So that's who I'm going with. Biden.

[buckpasser]

Don't forget the odds I showed you the same day:

A quick look at the Intrade Prediction Markets:

2008 Dem Vice Pres Nominee (Bid Price sort of equals & chance among those "betting"):

Clinton 15.5%
Bayh 11.0%
Biden 9.4%
Clark 6.2%
Nunn 4.4%
Edwards 3.9%
Gore 3.5%
Daschle 2.3%
Dodd 1.0%
Six Others < 1%
Field (any others) 35.2%

Nine to one minus the juice on Biden.

[sun dog]

the editorial board that came to her defense and said it was exaggerated in the national press. Hmm, let's see, Obama supporters, including so-called "press" vs. people who were there to hear the comments first-hand? Hmm.

The Argus Leader endorsement made no mention of the comments. And Randell Beck, the executive editor of the Argus Leader, said, "The context of the question and answer with Sen. Clinton was whether her continued candidacy jeopardized party unity this close to the Democratic convention. Her reference to Mr. Kennedy's assassination appeared to focus on the timeline of his primary candidacy and not the assassination itself."

That doesn't "appear" to be a spirited defense. In any case, we can judge for ourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vyFqmp4wzI

And no, Kace, that was just me.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

The Argus Leader endorsement made no mention of the comments. And Randell Beck, the executive editor of the Argus Leader, said, "The context of the question and answer with Sen. Clinton was whether her continued candidacy jeopardized party unity this close to the Democratic convention. Her reference to Mr. Kennedy's assassination appeared to focus on the timeline of his primary candidacy and not the assassination itself."

That doesn't "appear" to be a spirited defense. In any case, we can judge for ourselves.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5vyFqmp4wzI

And no, Kace, that was just me.

The Argus Leader staff gave many interviews in the week following that comment and they most certainly did defend her and imply, if not say outright, the national media had exaggerated the whole thing.

[Jax]

I notice the report you didn't include was the one from The Argus Leader. You know, the paper she was giving the interview to at the time, the editorial board that came to her defense and said it was exaggerated in the national press. Hmm, let's see, Obama supporters, including so-called "press" vs. people who were there to hear the comments first-hand? Hmm.

Wait, you accuse lerxst of leaving out an interview yet you float the plagiarism argument?

[Pro]

In the stupidest political move, Obama snubs Hillary's 18 million voters by not even vetting her financial records. Way to win over those 46% percent of Clinton supporters who've said they won't vote for him.

Hell hath no fury....

[Jax]

Hell hath no fury....

Indeed... Maybe Murph hasn't seen this yet. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zgi_kIYx_bY)

[Desert Rat]

In the stupidest political move, Obama snubs Hillary's 18 million voters by not even vetting her financial records. Way to win over those 46% percent of Clinton supporters who've said they won't vote for him.

Do you honestly think that if Hillary won the nomination, she would have even considered Obama as her VP?

I think not..

[Bandit]

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c152/jeffgh/image72.jpg

We haven't seen this kind of devotion since at least ... oh ... 1997.

[Kace]

So...how does choosing a guy who's been in Congress for a little while constitute, "change?"

...And yes, I ask this knowing full well I'm votin' for someone else. But it doesn't make me any less curious.

[Kace]

We haven't seen this kind of devotion since at least ... oh ... 1997.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/BushBillboard.jpg

[FD2BLK]

Still waiting for NT'rr to tell us how this will backfire on the Desperate Dems.

[Mr. Rugen]

Still waiting for NT'rr to tell us how this will backfire on the Desperate Dems.
It'll probably say something like "Joe Biden be perpetratin' up off in Hussein Osama's campaign. Biden say he be bringin' the gin and juice"

[Bandit]

http://www.lewrockwell.com/grigg/BushBillboard.jpg
Yeah, but he actually won something.

[Bandit]

It'll probably say something like "Joe Biden be perpetratin' up off in Hussein Osama's campaign. Biden say he be bringin' the gin and juice" That Rugen is a bad Motha ... (Shut Yo' Mouth!)

[Angel's Hell]

In the stupidest political move, Obama snubs Hillary's 18 million voters by not even vetting her financial records. Way to win over those 46% percent of Clinton supporters who've said they won't vote for him.

Haven't I suggested all along, and now I'll say it, that this is all the work of some Hollywood big wigs who worked for the Clintons in the 90's to help them raise a ton of money? They developed a well-known disaffection for the Clintons and then suddenly, they brought OBAMA to the forefront! I am sure that David Geffen is one of the masterminds behind Obama's rise in the media and politics.
'
What's really scary: Geffen chooses people like this, bright charismatic newcomers to manage his many businesses, and he's often successful. But I think that he also is behind the scenes manioulating things.

As a Democrat, thinking that I might be electing a David Geffen puppet to a Presidency is just so incredibly nauseating that I might vote for someone else!

[DW]

So when you campaign for President & say of one of your opponents:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy ... I mean, that's a storybook, man." source: http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/01/biden_on_obama_.html

Biden was roundly chastised for that veiled racial comment & apologized in one of the most pathetic displays I've seen from any politician. Yeah, Veep material here.

It's now the Republican's election to lose. Let's see how McCain will handle this "gift".

[DeconGal]

Biden is a necessary political choice. He, however, is a very risky pick.
Obama just screamed in the loudest terms, "I lack experience and I know it".

[HushHush]

I guess I better start watching the news. I have no idea who this Biden guy is.

[Sigonfile]

I was awakened around 3:00 a.m. this morning with the Obama message regarding the VP pick. Trouble is.......I was awakened by the alarm mode on my WX service EBS warning. What irony!

[Diplomat]

Perhaps Obama feels that Biden is "clean and articulate." :)

Biden has been painted in the past as a "centrist," which is not the case. He is liberal and always has been. This choice will help Obama with party faithful who have been concerned about his lack of experience. On the other hand, the ticket may lose Indian-American votes because of Biden's patronizing comment about Indian-Americans who work in 7/11 stores or at Dunkin' Donuts. The plagiarism scandal of 1987 will also be brought up and Biden's comment to an interviewer along the line of "I think I have a higher I.Q than you" will probably be in some commercial either by the McCain camp or some group supporting him.

Biden is a smart guy, but is he the smartest guy in America? No. In Washington? No. In Delaware? No. On his block? Perhaps.

In 1988, Lloyd Bentsen was considered a plus for Michael Dukakis, especially after his Kennedy comment. The truth about that was that Bentsen and JFK were NOT friends (quite the opposite), but Bentsen and Dan Quayle WERE friends, as were their wives, and he effectively ended those friendships with his false comment that evening.

I don't think, however, that Biden will go that low, though. Recall that he and Strom Thurmond had a close friendship and he was one of the few who visited Thurmond in the rest home where he went after retiring as a Senator.

He may be a slight plus for Obama, though. Reaction from different quarters over the next few days will be interesting.

[Another side]

Biden is a necessary political choice. He, however, is a very risky pick.
Obama just screamed in the loudest terms, "I lack experience and I know it".

Well, that wasn't exactly a secret, and I don't recall Obama ever suggesting differently.

[Sultanosurf]

Hillary would've been the desperation pick, despite Murphy's lament. Biden packs risks, but seemed to have redeemed his earlier gaffes by rebounding the past couple of years. It's still kind of a strange pick, but sure keeps the focus on the main candidate...

[HushHush]

"I think I have a higher I.Q than you"

So - let's put him to the test .. so to speak. What is his IQ? Let's see if it is really higher than ours. Last test I took said my IQ was 138. So ... Biden ... bring it!

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Wait, you accuse lerxst of leaving out an interview yet you float the plagiarism argument?

I fail to see the connection.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Do you honestly think that if Hillary won the nomination, she would have even considered Obama as her VP?

I think not..

Oh, I don't think he should have picked Hillary either. I've said that very thing before. I just think that by not even considering her, he was making a statement, one that, IMO, he can't afford to make when it's obvious this election is going to be close.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Do you honestly think that if Hillary won the nomination, she would have even considered Obama as her VP?

I think not..

And by the way, my honest thought is that if Hillary had won the nomination, she should have picked Obama as her running mate. Obama, however, shouldn't have picked Hillary as his. My point is that by not even opening up the vetting process to her, it looks like a snub and being the intelligent man that he is, Obama knew it would and did it on purpose to make a statement.

[TV Dad]

I hope I'm wrong, but this is beginning to feel like yet another year where the Democrats will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

[Karma +]

Best. Decision. Ever.

Biden will eviscerate John McCain and his running mate in the debate and on the stump.

And CNN needs to stop with this "Obiden" crap. They actually think they're being "smart."

[Kace]

Yeah, but he actually won something.

So...I'm right then. Awesome. :rockon:

[Cheeky]

I hope I'm wrong, but this is beginning to feel like yet another year where the Democrats will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Hear, hear!

~Cheeky

[Dap]

And by the way, my honest thought is that if Hillary had won the nomination, she should have picked Obama as her running mate. Obama, however, shouldn't have picked Hillary as his. My point is that by not even opening up the vetting process to her, it looks like a snub and being the intelligent man that he is, Obama knew it would and did it on purpose to make a statement.

You prefer a candidate to lie about his intentions and put on a political show? My dear woman your logic is severely twisted. The country is one flush away from the cesspool of financial ruin and another war. You're concerned about keeping up appearances. Really now. Where are your priorities?

[Murphy Brown 2003]

You prefer a candidate to lie about his intentions and put on a political show? My dear woman your logic is severely twisted. The country is one flush away from the cesspool of financial ruin and another war. You're concerned about keeping up appearances. Really now. Where are your priorities?

I prefer respect be given to the candidate who won over 18 million votes in the closest primary race we've seen in my lifetime. That respect comes in the form of consideration. The fact that he didn't screams political statement and it's one that Obama can't afford to make. But then, The Arrogant One thinks he's got this election sewn up anyway so what's the difference?

[Dap]

I prefer respect be given to the candidate who won over 18 million votes in the closest primary race we've seen in my lifetime. That respect comes in the form of consideration. The fact that he didn't screams political statement and it's one that Obama can't afford to make. But then, The Arrogant One thinks he's got this election sewn up anyway so what's the difference?

So your answer is yes. You prefer presidential candidates lie.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

So your answer is yes. You prefer presidential candidates lie.

How is it lying to consider her? In the end, I don't think he should have picked her, but he should have considered her. The fact that he didn't was a political blunder. You obviously have a problem with the terminology and I'm not going to get into a war of semantics with you.

[Kace]

I prefer respect be given to the candidate who won over 18 million votes in the closest primary race we've seen in my lifetime.

What about the one who was apparently good enough to win said primary race?

[Murphy Brown 2003]

What about the one who was apparently good enough to win said primary race?

What about him? He gets to run for the White House. What does that have to do with giving consideration to the runner-up?

[Dap]

How is it lying to consider her? In the end, I don't think he should have picked her, but he should have considered her. The fact that he didn't was a political blunder. You obviously have a problem with the terminology and I'm not going to get into a war of semantics with you.

Perhaps he did consider her. Perhaps he didn't entertain the notion for even a second. How do you know which went through Obama's thoughts? Do you fancy yourself a mind reader?

Obama chose a running-mate with whom he feels he can work well. That is what matters, yeah? Not soothing the agony of defeat in which Hillary supporters enjoy wallowing. With Democrats like that, who needs Republicans?

[Kace]

What about him? He gets to run for the White House. What does that have to do with giving consideration to the runner-up?

It just seems you're giving credit to the 2nd place finisher more than you are the 1st.

[Diplomat]

It's thought Obama didn't seriously consider Hillary Clinton because her staff says she wasn't vetted in the way other contenders were. If he did or didn't and why he did or didn't--you would have to ask him.

[Mr. Pratfall]

I am really beginning to think there's nothing Obama can do to satisfy hardcore Hillary supporters, short of dropping out of the race and letting Hilary run in his place.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Obama chose a running-mate with whom he feels he can work well. That is what matters, yeah?

Yep, it is, so long as you want to salute President McCain next January. As I said, it was a political blunder Obama couldn't afford to make.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

It just seems you're giving credit to the 2nd place finisher more than you are the 1st.

What? I haven't given credit to anyone in this thread. I've said that Obama -- as the first-place finisher -- made a political blunder by not even considering Hillary to be a running mate. It was a symbolic slap in the face and being the so-called intelligent man that he is, he knew that.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

I am really beginning to think there's nothing Obama can do to satisfy hardcore Hillary supporters, short of dropping out of the race and letting Hilary run in his place.

No. He can tone down the arrogance, grow some humility, and admit that he wasn't sent from Heaven to do God's work. But I don't think he ever will so if he wins, we'll four years of a liberal George W. Bush.

[Mr. Pratfall]

No. He can tone down the arrogance, grow some humility, and admit that he wasn't sent from Heaven to do God's work.

That's all in the eye of the beholder, I think.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

That's all in the eye of the beholder, I think.

The beholders are going to cost him the election.

[s'news]

I never expected Obama to pick Clinton. I was hoping for someone more interesting than Biden, even though that's probably a safer pick. So it goes.

[Bandit]

Yeah that arrogant jerk, allowing her name to be placed in nomination in Denver next week. And the nerve of the elitist pr!ck letting the Clintons have a prominent role in the convention.

I can't believe the nerve of that a$$hole, since HRC has been so gracious through this whole process, has accepted her campaign's defeat so well and encouraged her base to wholeheartedly support Obama.

She really doesn't deserve this obvious slap in the face, and I am happy that all those women out there see that they are really victims here whose victory was stolen and are so righteous in their anger.

[Mr. Pratfall]

You read my mind, Bandit. What does the guy have to do?

[Kace]

What? I haven't given credit to anyone in this thread.

I prefer respect be given to the candidate who won over 18 million votes in the closest primary race we've seen in my lifetime.

So...why not just say, "I still prefer Hillary Clinton," instead of giving us the whole, "blah blah blah 18 million voters blah blah blah close primary," and all that?

[Murphy Brown 2003]

You read my mind, Bandit. What does the guy have to do?

Show humility? He's proved that he's not even capable of being a gracious winner.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

So...why not just say, "I still prefer Hillary Clinton," instead of giving us the whole, "blah blah blah 18 million voters blah blah blah close primary," and all that?

Because that's not what my point was with this thread and also because anyone with a 3rd grade education would know that yes, I do still prefer Hillary. This is what I meant about being annoying, Kace. Sometimes, it's better not to see your name in print.

[Kace]

This is what I meant about being annoying, Kace. Sometimes, it's better not to see your name in print.

:hug:

[Bandit]

:hug: I don't always agree with ya Kace, but I'm always happy to see ya. :)

[Kace]

:hug:

[Pro]

Show humility? He's proved that he's not even capable of being a gracious winner.

Well, let's see. Both Bill and Hillary will be speaking in prime-time at the convention. Her name will be placed in nomination and there will be a roll-call vote.

Nahh, Obama's not being the least bit gracious. :rolleyes:

It appears that Clintonistas are griping just for the same of griping. Our out of just plain spite.

[Pro]

I hope I'm wrong, but this is beginning to feel like yet another year where the Democrats will snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.

Chuck Todd would disagree with you:

On the Democratic side, it was a collective "phew." As the days got nearer for the pick, it was hard to find a Democrat -- even savvy Clintonites -- who weren't hoping it would be Biden. Only the most strident Hillary supporters appear to be upset this morning. On the GOP side, the sound you heard was disappointed silence. Of everyone on the short list, the candidate many Republicans least wanted to see Obama pick was Biden. Sure, they've already trotted out their talking points. And the McCain camp even produced a rapid-response TV ad (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RDVUPqoowf8) highlighting some unkind words Biden said about Obama during the primaries. (We assume this now means McCain won’t be picking Romney, right? And doesn't the McCain ad actually send the message to swing voters that Obama's willing to surround himself with critics?) But there are too many intellectual conservatives (see David Brooks) who believe Biden's the most qualified guy Obama could have realistically picked.

http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2008/08/23/1285720.aspx

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Reminds me of the analysis in May and June when Obama and his posse thought all the Clinton supporters would step in line and rally for him. Hmm, let's see. The number who won't vote for him went from 49% to 46% in three months. That's some real headway there. Lots of luck. LOL

As for Biden, I think he's a good choice for VP.

[Pro]

BTW, here's one columnist - Howard Fineman - who thought Obama did the Clintons a favor:

Even his much-criticized failure to "vet" Sen. Hillary Clinton means less than meets the eye. I talked two months ago to one of her closest legal advisors, who told me that she didn't really WANT to be considered for the number two job--in no small measure because the process would have required Obama's lawyers to comb through her husband's foundation and its murky sources of income.

In that sense, Obama did her a favor by not really demanding to consider her. She would have had to say "no."

http://www.newsweek.com/id/154863

[Desert Rat]

And by the way, my honest thought is that if Hillary had won the nomination, she should have picked Obama as her running mate. Obama, however, shouldn't have picked Hillary as his. My point is that by not even opening up the vetting process to her, it looks like a snub and being the intelligent man that he is, Obama knew it would and did it on purpose to make a statement.

My point is that Hillary would have done the very same thing to Obama, not even vetting him at all.

Simply speaking, they hate each other which is why I wasn't surprised at all Hillary wasn't even on his radar screen.

[Desert Rat]

Show humility? He's proved that he's not even capable of being a gracious winner.

Since when does politics have gracious winners?

[Murphy Brown 2003]

My point is that Hillary would have done the very same thing to Obama, not even vetting him at all.

Simply speaking, they hate each other which is why I wasn't surprised at all Hillary wasn't even on his radar screen.

I'm not sure that Hillary wouldn't have vetted him. I think she would have realized that even if she couldn't live with him on her ticket, she owed him and his millions of supporters the respect of consideration. This is strictly my opinion, but I believe that Obama chose not to vet Hillary not because he knew he wouldn't pick her but because he's arrogant enough to think that he can win the general election without her supporters. I'd say he thinks her supporters will come around, but given that it's been three months since he first made that claim and there's barely been a dent (if at all) in the numbers, I think even he would have admit the ship has sailed on that delusion.

[Pro]

This is strictly my opinion, but I believe that Obama chose not to vet Hillary not because he knew he wouldn't pick her but because he's arrogant enough to think that he can win the general election without her supporters.

See the above Newsweek column.

[Kace]

Is it possible to be arrogant enough to think that someone can't win without you?

[Bandit]

Where IS that Oh! Snap! emoticon when you need it? :rockon:

[Pro]

One interesting thing about Biden is the age gap between Obama and him - almost 19 years. While other VP's have been older than the President - VP Cheney is 7 years older than President Bush and Johnson was 9 years older than Kennedy - if they are elected this would, by far, be the biggest age gap where the VP is older, at least since 1900.

And, let's say Obama is elected. That would make Biden 74 at the end of two terms. Two years older than McCain is now. Would he run?

[Diplomat]

Were Obama elected, it would not at all surprise me to see Biden make Dick Cheney seem warm and fuzzy by comparison.

[Mr. Pratfall]

Yeah, Biden would shoot two guys.

[Kace]

With his fist.

[Kace]

Where IS that Oh! Snap! emoticon when you need it?

One day, MediaLine's gonna add it. 'Til then, I'm posting it from elsewhere.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v418/Kace-BTT/ohsnap.gif

[production]

Yawn... who cares about the VP really?

This election reminds me of the Southpark Episode from 2004..

Giant Douche vs Turd Sandwich (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A4g5uVF5hm0)

[Diplomat]

Yeah, Biden would shoot two guys.

Biden will just go ape and scream at people.

But, it should be noted that Adlai Stevenson killed someone and still got nominated for President. ;)

[Pro]

Were Obama elected, it would not at all surprise me to see Biden make Dick Cheney seem warm and fuzzy by comparison.

Biden has always projected a warm and outgoing image. Cheney, on the other hand, has projected a cold and withdrawn image. Biden smiles. Cheney smirks. Cheney has a bland, monotone speaking voice. Biden is known for his oratory skills.

[Pro]

Biden will just go ape and scream at people.

I'm pretty sure Biden never told a U.S. Senator "***** you".

But, it should be noted that Adlai Stevenson killed someone and still got nominated for President. ;)

And Grover Cleveland personally hanged people as Sheriff of Erie County, NY before being elected President.

[Diplomat]

Biden has always projected a warm and outgoing image. Cheney, on the other hand, has projected a cold and withdrawn image. Biden smiles. Cheney smirks. Cheney has a bland, monotone speaking voice. Biden is known for his oratory skills.

Biden - "warm and outgoing?" Give me a break. The guy could write a book on grandstanding and self-aggrandizement. You know when he's on a committee hearing, it's going to run long.

Cheney also smiles. There are plenty of photos out there to prove it.

[Diplomat]

I'm pretty sure Biden never told a U.S. Senator "***** you".



And Grover Cleveland personally hanged people as Sheriff of Erie County, NY before being elected President.

Considering it was Patrick Leahy, I think Cheney was restrained. :)

Cleveland was a law enforcement officer so hanging criminals was part of the job. Stevenson as a young man accidentally killed a girl who was a houseguest. And Aaron Burr, as VP, deliberately killed Alexander Hamilton.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Is it possible to be arrogant enough to think that someone can't win without you?

It's not so much arrogance as it is the truth.

[Jax]

It's not so much arrogance as it is the truth.

ar·ro·gant (ăr'ə-gənt) pronunciation
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

Sounds like the Hilldog "You can't win without MEEEEEE!!!" supporters...

[Another side]

Well ... he can't win without the help of former Clinton supporters. That's a fact.

[Bandit]

Well ... he can't win without the help of former Clinton supporters. That's a fact. So after all that's happened the last eight years, and the differences between Obama and McCain on policy ... Clinton supporters are going to ignore the prominent ways in which Obama has reached out to HRC ... name in nomination, both Clintons speaking at the convention, etc. ... and sit on their thumbs in November because they feel she should have been vetted? Really?

Maybe this Clinton thing really is a cult after all.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

ar·ro·gant (ăr'ə-gənt) pronunciation
adj.

1. Having or displaying a sense of overbearing self-worth or self-importance.
2. Marked by or arising from a feeling or assumption of one's superiority toward others

Sounds like the Hilldog "You can't win without MEEEEEE!!!" supporters...

It's not a feeling or assumption. It's a fact, as Another Side pointed out. In a race this tight, he needs every vote he can get and when you have 46% of Clinton supporters saying "no deal," you've got a problem.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

So after all that's happened the last eight years, and the differences between Obama and McCain on policy ... Clinton supporters are going to ignore the prominent ways in which Obama has reached out to HRC ... name in nomination, both Clintons speaking at the convention, etc. ... and sit on their thumbs in November because they feel she should have been vetted? Really?

Maybe this Clinton thing really is a cult after all.

Like he was ever going to deny them a speaking spot at the convention. If he had, the number of Clinton supporters voting for him would have been in the teens. Regardless of who the nominee was, Bill Clinton was going to speak at this year's convention and as the runner-up in the primary, Hillary was as well, especially when she earned so many votes.

[From the Right]

One interesting thing about Biden is the age gap between Obama and him - almost 19 years. While other VP's have been older than the President - VP Cheney is 7 years older than President Bush and Johnson was 9 years older than Kennedy - if they are elected this would, by far, be the biggest age gap where the VP is older, at least since 1900.

And, let's say Obama is elected. That would make Biden 74 at the end of two terms. Two years older than McCain is now. Would he run?

Luckily we won't have to worry about that scenario.

[TV Dad]

Clinton supporters are going to ignore the prominent ways in which Obama has reached out to HRC ... name in nomination, both Clintons speaking at the convention, etc. ...

Is that really Obama reaching out to the Clinton supporters or is it the Democratic party that's throwing them a bone in hopes they won't defect?

[Bandit]

Like he was ever going to deny them a speaking spot at the convention. If he had, the number of Clinton supporters voting for him would have been in the teens. Regardless of who the nominee was, Bill Clinton was going to speak at this year's convention and as the runner-up in the primary, Hillary was as well, especially when she earned so many votes. Seems if he was as arrogant as you suppose, that's exactly what he would have done.

You can't have it both ways, Murph.

At some point, the loser needs to show a little graciousness, too.

[s'news]

Biden is known for his oratory skills.

And for talkin' a long time while he's at it.

[Pro]

Considering it was Patrick Leahy, I think Cheney was restrained. :).

So when it's a Senator you don't like, it's OK, huh? Got it. :rolleyes:

[Pro]

Luckily we won't have to worry about that scenario.

You and Produce are the "Kings of Wishful Thinking" of Medialine

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VYnZL0BOXDc

[Pro]

Just I thought....from the Diplomat s*it list:

Helen Thomas
Paul Krugman
NPR
Jesse Jackson
Ted Kennedy
PBS
John Edwards
John Kerry
People who profess to help the poor
The Dixie Chicks
Hillary Clinton
Bill Clinton
Al Gore
Al Gore Sr.
The idea that Al Gore lives in Tennessee
School administrators
The Religious Left
Michael Moore
People who ask for a link
Al Franken
The Gospel of Supply Side Jesus
The New York Times
Los Angeles Times
Bruce Springsteen
Barbra Streisand
Tom Daschle
People who questioned the Bush tax cuts
Cynthia McKinney
Molly Ivins
Larry Flynt
James Carville
People who celebrate Kwanzaa
Janet Reno
"Humorless leftists"
The "PC left"
Personal-injury trial lawyers
"Leftist professors"
"Leftie professors"
NAACP
Benjamin Chavis
Julian Bond
Kweisi Mfume
ACLU
Dick Gephardt
Labor unions
Hans Blix
Maureen Dowd
Bill Moyers
Bill Maher
Whoopi Goldberg
Paul Begala
Government schools
Lloyd Bentsen
Jim Hightower
Jayson Blair
Howell Raines
Gerald Boyd
Arthur Sulzberger Jr.
NEA
Maxine Waters
FAIR
Ron Reagan
Eddie Bernice Johnson
Donald Trump
Linda Ronstadt
Dan Rather
MTV
Teresa Heinz Kerry
Al Sharpton
Pete Townshend
Phil Spector
The cast and crew of Cats*
Terry Gross
Camryn Manheim
The Center for American Progress
MoveOn.org
"David Brock's outfit"
David Brock
Take Back the Media
Jeremy Glick
s'news**
Jimmy Carter
Julienne Malveaux
Media Matters for America
Cell phones
Dennis Kucinich
Martha Burke
The Today Show
Ben Bradlee
Katharine Graham
People who talk about "the children"
Society of Professional Journalists
Barack Obama
Bob Herbert
Michael Kinsley
Rush & Molloy
Kitty Kelly
Howard Dean
Pat Robertson
Adm. William J. Crowe
George Soros
Union leaders
Bureaucrats
Walter Cronkite
UC Berkeley
Eleanor Clift
Tucker Carlson
Ron Brown
Nina Totenberg
Warren Buffet
Lee Iococca
Anyone suggesting Paul Hamm return his gold medal
Barbara Mikulski
Cynthia McKinney
Charles Rangel
Tom Harkin
France
Nancy Pelosi
James Jeffords
Alan Keyes
Lowell Weicker
Jessica Lange
Sean Penn
Janeane Garofalo
Pat Buchanan
Angela Buchanan
Marian Wright Edelman
Children's Defense Fund
Bernie Sanders
People for the American Way
Gregory Peck
Jason Blair
Bob Graham
The Socialist Workers Party
The Communist Party USA
Angela Davis
Protesters. They don't bathe.
Rev. Sun Myung Moon
Mary Mapes
The Boston Globe
Carole Simpson
Charles Rangel
Terry Sanford
The News & Observer
John Kenneth Galbraith
Barry Lynn
Common Cause
Alliance for Better Campaigns
Media Access Project
Media for Democracy
Office of Communications of the United Church of Christ
Houston police
Pat Robertson****
Jerry Falwell****
James Dobson****
Louisville's The Courier-Journal
Albert Hunt
Jim Sasser
Greg Palast
Corinne Brown
Eminem
Ludacris
Joseph Biden
Barack Obama
Ted Rall
Frank Rich
The National Conversation on Race
John Hope Franklin
Keith Olbermann
Christiane Amanpour
Bryant Gumbel
Willian Sloane Coffin
Joel Levy
Howard Beale
Jan Egeland
Columbia Journalism Review
The United Nations
Robert Scheer
Michael Gartner
Ashlee Simpson
Robert Byrd
A leftist DJ in Florida
Hawaii ACLU
Rep. Andrew Fleischmann
His congressman, a (surprise!) Democrat
People wanting him to back up statements about Paul Krugman
Aaron Brown
Bernard Sanders
Harry Reid
Christina Hoff Summers
Fay Vincent
Bart Giamatti
Gary Sick
The Poynter Institute
James Moran
His state representative
Janeane Garafalo
Kroger
Houston Chronicle
Robert Mapplethorpe
Donald Riegle
Dennis DeConcini
Cyrus Vance
"Donald Wildmon's outfit"
Carol Mosely Braun
Loretta Sanchez
Darrell Waltrip
Fidel Castro
Alessandra Stanley
Steven Glass
Robert F. Kennedy Jr.
Ronnie Earle
Share the Land, a song
Harry Belafonte
Jokes about blow jobs
Patrick Leahy
Bella Abzug
Kathleen Blanco
Ray Nagin
Mary Landrieu
neoconservative, the word
Dennis Kozlowski
International Answer
Workers World Party
Rigoberta Menchú Tum
Lawrence Walsh
Howard Metzenbaum
democracynow.org
commondreams.org
Father Robert Drinan
Matthew Miller
Hugo Chavez
Tucker Carlson
Rocky Anderson
Lynne Spears
Elizabeth Edwards

Moustafa Bayoumi

Norman Birnbaum Professor Emeritus
Georgetown University Law Center

Tim Carpenter
Progressive Democrats of America

John Cavanaugh, director
Institute for Policy Studies

Juan Cole

Chuck Collins

Phil Donahue

Barbara Ehrenreich

Tom Engelhardt
Tomdispatch.com

Jodie Evans, co-f0under
CODEPINK: Women for Peace

Thomas Ferguson

Bill Fletcher Jr., executive editor,
BlackCommentator.com

Eric Foner

Milton Glaser

Robert Greenwald

William Greider

Jane Hamsher

Tom Hayden

Christopher Hayes

Richard Kim

Stuart Klawans

Bill McKibben

Walter Mosley

Eli Pariser

Richard Parker, president
Americans for Democratic Action

Gary Phillips
Writer and activist

Jon Pincus
achangeiscoming.net and member of Get FISA Right

Chip Pitts

Frances Piven

Elizabeth Pochoda

Katha Pollitt

Marcus Raskin

Betsy Reed

Bob Scheer

Herman Schwartz

Jonathan Schell

Gene Seymour

David Sirota

Norman Solomon
Author and Obama delegate to Democratic National Convention

Mike Stark

Jean Stein

Matt Stoller

Jonathan Tasini

Zephyr Teachout

Studs Terkel

Katrina vanden Heuvel

Gore Vidal

David Weir

Howard Zinn

Tripe Face*****

And ...

"An anti-Semitic news director who refused to reimburse travel and other expenses."

[s'news]

Hey! You left off the footnotes.

[Another side]

So after all that's happened the last eight years, and the differences between Obama and McCain on policy ... Clinton supporters are going to ignore the prominent ways in which Obama has reached out to HRC ... name in nomination, both Clintons speaking at the convention, etc. ... and sit on their thumbs in November because they feel she should have been vetted? Really?

Uh, I didn't say anything of the sort. All I said was Obama can't win without the support of former Clinton supporters. That's a fact.

What former Clinton supporters will ultimately do is beyond me. I have no idea.

[Desert Rat]

It's not a feeling or assumption. It's a fact, as Another Side pointed out. In a race this tight, he needs every vote he can get and when you have 46% of Clinton supporters saying "no deal," you've got a problem.

Let's see what they do on November 4th....if that percentage holds true that tells me those folks could care less about the Democratic party......and that's a bigger picture problem.

If those Democrats, for arguements sake, are loyalists....and they vote for McCain...then that tells me that they are a lot more stupid than I figured.

[Pro]

Hey! You left off the footnotes.

Well, if anyone wants 'em I'm sure one of us can dig 'em up. ;)

[Desert Rat]

Seems if he was as arrogant as you suppose, that's exactly what he would have done.

You can't have it both ways, Murph.

At some point, the loser needs to show a little graciousness, too.

Since when are losers ever gracious in politics?

[Pro]

All I said was Obama can't win without the support of former Clinton supporters. That's a fact.

But does he need support from 100% of them? How about 70%? Or even 60%? Remember the Obama campaign registered millions and millions of new voters this year and are continuing to do so.

[Bandit]

Since when are losers ever gracious in politics? Apparently not since the late spring. ;)

[Pro]

Biden - "warm and outgoing?" Give me a break.

This is what Newsweek's Howard Fineman says:

Certainly among Democrats, Biden has few enemies. Even most Republicans like him. He is an irrepressible character, full of energy, smiles and, at times, baloney.

http://www.newsweek.com/id/154863

[s'news]

Mmmm. Baloney.

[Bandit]

Mmmm. Baloney. I like my baloney like I like my Clintons ... fried. :rockon:

[Karma +]

Let's take a look at this "grace' that many seem to think Obama needs to show for winning a competitive race.

"Jesse Jackson won South Carolina in '84 and '88. Jackson ran a good campaign. And Obama ran a good campaign here." ~Bill

Gracious?

"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002." ~Hill

Gracious?

"Shame on you, Barack Obama." ~Hill

You stay classy, Hill!

Obama owes the Clintons (or 'their' supporters) nothing. He has done more than enough up to this point. He has epitomozed class and grace.

Another point: people (in general, not just necessarily here) are complaining because Obama did not vet Hillary for VP. Is it possible that she did not want to be vetted considering all their shading dealings surrounding Bill Clinton's speeches and the library donations? She may have pulled her name out of the running to avoid such revelations and now she does not want to admit to it.

Food for thought...

[Another side]

Let's see what they do on November 4th....if that percentage holds true that tells me those folks could care less about the Democratic party......and that's a bigger picture problem.

If those Democrats, for arguements sake, are loyalists....and they vote for McCain...then that tells me that they are a lot more stupid than I figured.

I'm curious how you define "loyalists." As for myself, I look first, and often, at the Democratic candidate in every election, and usually (maybe with 2 or 3 non-local, exceptions in 40 years) vote for the Democratic candidate.

Does this mean I'll vote for any rummy the party puts up, simply because they're a Democrat? No, it does not.

If that's a non-loyalist, then color me stupid.

[Diplomat]

Pro and s'news are serial distorters as evidenced by that list. And we all kn ow this "list" wasn't made by all the people the compiler claims--no such thing happened. Of course, it was the same person who once claimed he knew what I studied in a particular class in college.

I can logically conclude they have admiration for the people I have criticized and for the very reasons for which I criticized the people. That is very telling. And what it's telling isn't good.

Oh well, maybe those two can get a room with a view. Of course, it will have to be a narrow view.

[Diplomat]

I'm curious how you define "loyalists." As for myself, I look first, and often, at the Democratic candidate in every election, and usually (maybe with 2 or 3 non-local, exceptions in 40 years) vote for the Democratic candidate.

Does this mean I'll vote for any rummy the party puts up, simply because they're a Democrat? No, it does not.

If that's a non-loyalist, then color me stupid.

Doesn't sound stupid to me.

Instead of their term "loyalist," might it be better, AS, to say you are a Democrat but one who looks at all candidates before making your decision?

[Another side]

But does he need support from 100% of them? How about 70%? Or even 60%? Remember the Obama campaign registered millions and millions of new voters this year and are continuing to do so.

Good question. It probably depends on where most of the Independents go. That's not particularly illiuminating political analysis, I know ... but it's all I've got. This is a very close and confusing election.

[McCovey Cove Returns]

Political stupidity knows no bounds...

[Diplomat]

Biden is the one who questioned Clarence Thomas in a patronizing and possibly racially patronizing manner while going much softer on Anita Hill. After the hearings, he reportedly said, "I believe him, not her" if David Brock is to be believed.

[Pro]

I can logically conclude they have admiration for the people I have criticized and for the very reasons for which I criticized the people.

"Logically?" :rolleyes:

[Diplomat]

"Logically?" :rolleyes:

Deflecting again, I see?

I knew you would.

[neodeity]

Biden is the one who questioned Clarence Thomas in a patronizing and possibly racially patronizing manner while going much softer on Anita Hill. After the hearings, he reportedly said, "I believe him, not her" if David Brock is to be believed.

Couldn't your scenario also be called "doing his job?" Thomas wanted to be a Supreme Court Justice, it was his conformation hearing. I would hope the Senators, especially those from the opposing party, would grill him unmercifully; that's what a good Senator should do and what a good candidate should be able to withstand. Hill was a witness and as such should be treated with courtesy whether she was believed or not. If your Brock quote of Biden is correct; then you should be pleased that the system worked and a Justice, (I assume) of whom you approve, won out over a thin accusation of harassment. However, had Thomas not been grilled so thoroughly mightn’t we still be questioning this Justice? The system worked; what's the problem.

[Pro]

Deflecting again, I see?


Deflecting what? What was there to deflect?

I was questioning. Something I know you can't stand.

[Diplomat]

Couldn't your scenario also be called "doing his job?" Thomas wanted to be a Supreme Court Justice, it was his conformation hearing. I would hope the Senators, especially those from the opposing party, would grill him unmercifully; that's what a good Senator should do and what a good candidate should be able to withstand. Hill was a witness and as such should be treated with courtesy whether she was believed or not. If your Brock quote of Biden is correct; then you should be pleased that the system worked and a Justice, (I assume) of whom you approve, won out over a thin accusation of harassment. However, had Thomas not been grilled so thoroughly mightn’t we still be questioning this Justice? The system worked; what's the problem.

It is one thing to ask questions. It is quite another to question someone as if everything a witness says is true, as Biden did. His questions appeared to be based on the assumption that everything she and Susan Hoerchner and their friends said about him was true. Many of the other Senators appeared to treat her the same way. A witness deserves courtesy but if someone suspects he or she is lying, they should be questioned. Thank God Arlen Specter did just that.

Compare that to Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Stephen Breyer, whose confirmation hearings were fairly easy.

I think questions need to be asked. If Senators had really done their job in 1993, the morally bankrupt Janet Reno would never have been Attorney General. I'd love to have seen Grant Snowden given the opportunity to tell his story on national television. I think he'd have been a lot more credible than Anita Hill and Susan Hoerchner.

[Pro]

It is one thing to ask questions. It is quite another to question someone as if everything a witness says is true, as Biden did. His questions appeared to be based on the assumption that everything she and Susan Hoerchner and their friends said about him was true. Many of the other Senators appeared to treat her the same way. A witness deserves courtesy but if someone suspects he or she is lying, they should be questioned. Thank God Arlen Specter did just that.

And what if Senators suspected she was telling the truth and Thomas was lying?

[Diplomat]

And what if Senators suspected she was telling the truth and Thomas was lying?

Of course you'd say that.

Anita Hill's testimony was questionable at best because she couldn't keep straight the dates and times she worked with Thomas. Hoerchner was no help, either, backing up accusations of incidents that took place before Hoerchner and Hill ever met, or before Hill worked with Thomas.

[Pro]

Anita Hill's testimony was questionable at best because she couldn't keep straight the dates and times she worked with Thomas. Hoerchner was no help, either, backing up accusations of incidents that took place before Hoerchner and Hill ever met, or before Hill worked with Thomas.

Biden and the others didn't buy that.

Come on, your problem with that is purely partisan. Admit it. Thomas was nominated by a President you liked and would vote exactly the way you wanted him to. You objected to him being questioned. It was partisan. Which is fine....if you admit to it.

[s'news]

"Logically?" :rolleyes:

Nope.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Seems if he was as arrogant as you suppose, that's exactly what he would have done.

You can't have it both ways, Murph.

At some point, the loser needs to show a little graciousness, too.

She showed graciousness in Unity, NH. More than he deserved, IMO.

[Pro]

She showed graciousness in Unity, NH. More than he deserved, IMO.

Why? Because he won? Is nobody supposed to beat Hillary Clinton?

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Let's see what they do on November 4th....if that percentage holds true that tells me those folks could care less about the Democratic party......and that's a bigger picture problem.

If those Democrats, for arguements sake, are loyalists....and they vote for McCain...then that tells me that they are a lot more stupid than I figured.

There are quite a few Hillary supporters who don't feel that Obama represents the views of the Democratic Party. I'm inching that way myself. I've called him a liberal George W. Bush before and I think that comparison is more accurate day by day. Frankly, at some point, you have to step back and look at the person you're electing. Is it enough that he's for gay rights when I disagree with his radical views on abortion, his flip-flopping on drilling, and his toothless health care proposal? Add to that that I can't stand him as a person and I'd say his view on gay rights isn't enough to keep me. I'm finding myself possibly deciding not to vote for him come election day.

[s'news]

Deflecting what? What was there to deflect?

I was questioning. Something I know you can't stand.

The deflection would come when, after facing a list of people and organizations that one has slapped at on the Internet, one attacks the people who put the list there, attack how it was compiled, and then -- the leap of logic that's coming is huge given that he's implied the list is in error and yet has not given one specific case where it is supposedly wrong -- "logically" decides that the bearers of the list admire the people on that list and criticizes them for that.

Now that's deflection. Or at least attempted deflection. And sloppy logic.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Let's take a look at this "grace' that many seem to think Obama needs to show for winning a competitive race.

"Jesse Jackson won South Carolina in '84 and '88. Jackson ran a good campaign. And Obama ran a good campaign here." ~Bill

Gracious?

"I think that I have a lifetime of experience that I will bring to the White House. I know Senator McCain has a lifetime of experience to the White House. And Senator Obama has a speech he gave in 2002." ~Hill

Gracious?

"Shame on you, Barack Obama." ~Hill

You stay classy, Hill!

Obama owes the Clintons (or 'their' supporters) nothing. He has done more than enough up to this point. He has epitomozed class and grace.

Another point: people (in general, not just necessarily here) are complaining because Obama did not vet Hillary for VP. Is it possible that she did not want to be vetted considering all their shading dealings surrounding Bill Clinton's speeches and the library donations? She may have pulled her name out of the running to avoid such revelations and now she does not want to admit to it.

Food for thought...

LOLOLOLOLOL, Obama and gracious in the same sentence. That's a good one! He'll do to the country what W. did, except in reverse. Have fun defending him for four years should he win.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Why? Because he won? Is nobody supposed to beat Hillary Clinton?

No, because of his patronizing arrogance, because his campaign did the race baiting and then labeled others racists, because his campaign volunteers threatened and harassed superdelegates and he looked the other way. He doesn't deserve the votes of her supporters simply because he has a "D" after his name.

[Desert Rat]

Here's an interesting story....

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080823/D92O9FFG2.html

especially this part, if it's true...

Hillary Rodham Clinton, who ran so closely to Obama in the primary, was never seriously considered, said two officials involved with the search. She asked not to be vetted unless she was going to be picked, the two officials said, speaking on a condition of anonymity to describe the private discussions.'

That explains a lot....

[Karma +]

Here's an interesting story....

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20080823/D92O9FFG2.html

especially this part, if it's true...

Hillary Rodham Clinton, who ran so closely to Obama in the primary, was never seriously considered, said two officials involved with the search. She asked not to be vetted unless she was going to be picked, the two officials said, speaking on a condition of anonymity to describe the private discussions.'

That explains a lot....



They were discussing this tonight on CNN, and it absolutely sounds like the Clintons. And it plays into the point I was making earlier: the Clintons don't want to be vetted because of their shady dealings. If she were the presidential nominee, the media would probably give her a free pass and there would be no vetting process. If the Obama campaign vetted her, they would have discovered a number of reasons not to put her on the ticket, besides the fact that she ran a dirty primary race against him. It's a lose-lose for Obama: vet her, unearth all the Bill crap and you cannot chose her in good conscience. Not to mention they have absolutely no chemistry. Plus he would have been looking at a co-co-presidency. Don't vet her and everyone says "you could have at least vetted her!" Except that the Clintons didn't want to be vetted and they are too afraid to admit that fact.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

besides the fact that she ran a dirty primary race against him.

Hope the kool-aid still tastes good on November 5th.

[Jax]

Hope the kool-aid still tastes good on November 5th.

Do you think Obama's will taste similar to Hillary/McCain's?

[Pro]

There are quite a few Hillary supporters who don't feel that Obama represents the views of the Democratic Party. I'm inching that way myself. I've called him a liberal George W. Bush before and I think that comparison is more accurate day by day. Frankly, at some point, you have to step back and look at the person you're electing. Is it enough that he's for gay rights when I disagree with his radical views on abortion, his flip-flopping on drilling, and his toothless health care proposal? Add to that that I can't stand him as a person and I'd say his view on gay rights isn't enough to keep me. I'm finding myself possibly deciding not to vote for him come election day.

OK, how does John McCain match the views of the Democratic Party closer than Barack Obama? This I'd like to see.

Look if you're going to vote for McCain just to spite Obama, at least admit it.

[buckpasser]

Ladies and Gentlemen, Diplomat


{Biden) reportedly said, "I believe him, not her" if David Brock is to be believed.



Posting a link to David Brock's outfit doesn't help your credibility. Brock cannot seem to decide what ideology he'll subscribe to on a given week. Plus, much of what I have seen on his site is edited, distorted and butchered to further his agenda--which seems to be promoting himself.

When you guys resort to quoting Media Matters and David Brock about anything, you really haven't any business questioning anyone about keeping facts straight. David Brock doesn't deal in facts. Never has, no matter what side of issues he pretends to be on.

[ December 15, 2005, 06:37 PM: Message edited by: Diplomat ]

David Brock has always been too untrustworthy


David Brock is a proven liar

I'd be wary of quoting a smear merchant who cannot seem to decide what he is politically. David Brock is a phony and an opportunist and always has been.

I don't trust Media Matters because I don't trust David Brock. Never have. He'll be whatever ideology he needs to be to make a buck.


David Brock can't seem to decide what his ideology or beliefs are. They change as often as Hollywood types change spouses. I've never trusted the man.


You hate Bill O'Reilly, yet think a hate group like Media Matters and a charlatan like David Brock can be trusted.

Nobody's trying to divert anything except you. You are defending the hatred spewed by Brock

I didn't trust Brock when he claimed to be conservative and I do not trust him now that he professes to be liberal. Who knows what he will profess to be next?

I'm talking about David Brock, who changes his ideology like Liz Taylor changed husbands. I don't trust those "advocacy" or "watchdog" groups.




David Brock is a smear merchant. He always has been. If you want to trust him, fine. If you want to trust the NYT, fine. Its race-baiting on the op-ed page is about as rank as what we might hear from David Duke.


Zero--Brock has never been trustworthy. He's not "exposing" anything now and only an ideologue would think he is.


. It would also be shocking if you stopped posting the talking points for MoveOn, David Brock and other groups that lie and hate for a living.


David Brock is a confused opportunist who changes his ideology as often as Elizabeth Taylor changed husbands.

[Jax]

Look if you're going to vote for McCain just to spite Obama, at least admit it.

This isn't a campaign of two people, it's a vote for or against Obama. You can't find 13 people who want to elect McCain -- no one gives a damn about him...

But people like Murph, angered at Obama's arrogance in winning the primary (how dare he beat the presumptive nominee, Hilldog Clinton) will piss and moan all the way to November.

[s'news]

I guess Brock's name is supportable for inclusion on the list.

[Jax]

I've called him a liberal George W. Bush before and I think that comparison is more accurate day by day.

What does this even mean?

[s'news]

This isn't a campaign of two people, it's a vote for or against Obama. You can't find 13 people who want to elect McCain -- no one gives a damn about him...

But people like Murph, angered at Obama's arrogance in winning the primary (how dare he beat the presumptive nominee, Hilldog Clinton) will piss and moan all the way to November.

Now wait a minute. I may well vote for McCain. I think a Republican as president at a time when the Democrats control the Congress could be a good thing. My concern lies with judicial appointments that the next president will make, as I think our courts have tilted too far to the right.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

OK, how does John McCain match the views of the Democratic Party closer than Barack Obama? This I'd like to see.

Look if you're going to vote for McCain just to spite Obama, at least admit it.

I never said John McCain's views reflect those of the Democratic Party. I don't plan to vote for McCain. I'm just saying that I may not vote for Obama either as neither is the kind of person I want as POTUS. If McCain ends up at POTUS, I won't be happy, but I won't be happy with Obama either so it's a wash. It's not a game of who will make me happier at this point b/c frankly, I don't agree with either of them on the issues that are most important to me.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

What does this even mean?

That he's a liberal George W. Bush? I've said it before on this very forum -- Barack Obama is everything I hate about Bush. He's got that same arrogance, that same I'm-right-and-you're-wrong attitude, that "you're either with us or against us" mindset. The only difference is that I find Obama's policies a lot more tolerable. That doesn't mean I'm excited about voting for him. To me, the man still matters, regardless of issues.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Now wait a minute. I may well vote for McCain. I think a Republican as president at a time when the Democrats control the Congress could be a good thing. My concern lies with judicial appointments that the next president will make, as I think our courts have tilted too far to the right.

And judicial appointments is what keeps me from casting a ballot for McCain. I also think that with a Democratic congress, McCain as POTUS wouldn't be nearly as destructive as people make it out to be, but I'm not thrilled about the prospect of him in the White House either.

[s'news]

The previous post about how next to nobody could consider him as president is what got me riled up.

[buckpasser]

This might be a good time to look at the makeup of the Supreme Court. Please note the jurists most likely to be replaced have a track record of decisions commonly determined to be liberal. The youngest jurists two jurists, including Chief Justice John Roberts, were appointed by Bush.


Chief Justice John Roberts Age 53 Appt. by G.W. Bush

Samuel Alito Age 58 Appt. by G.W. Bush

Clarence Thomas Age 60 Appt. by G.H.W. Bush

David Souter Age 68 Appt. By G.H.W. Bush

Stephen Breyer Age 70 Appt. by Clinton

Antonin Scalia Age 72 Appt. By Ronald Reagan

Anthony Kennedy Age 72 Appt. by Ronald Reagan

Ruth Bader Ginsberg Age 75 Appt. by Clinton

John Paul Stevens Age 88 Appt. by Ford

----------------


Snooze and Murph are on to something.

Seven of nine appointed by Republicans.

Four of first five appointed by a Bush.

More than likely, you would have a liberal being replaced on the Supreme Court. Obama would appoint what would end up as the status quo as far as SCOUTS goes.

McCain would most certainly appoint someone who would satisfy the right wing base. Remember, the talk radio/right wing bloggers were there to assist Harriet Miers when they kicked her a*s to the curb. They were willing to still support Bush (when his ratings were falling) as long as he replaced the woman with a right wing man. The far right would be empowered, allowing from McCain now less than another Alito or Scalia. McCain says as much in his answers on the trail.

[Pro]

It's not a game of who will make me happier at this point b/c frankly, I don't agree with either of them on the issues that are most important to me.

Does either of them come close?

Tell me, is there anyone who you WOULD have voted for other than Hillary?

FWIW, only one Presidential candidate I have ever voted for ever was a near-perfect match to my own beliefs. And I've voted in 8 Presidential elections (so far, not counting primaries). I had problems with Kerry in 2004 - he did not have a solid alternative plan to get out of Iraq. And I have problems with Obama - his health care plan doesn't go as far as I'd like. But sometimes you have to make compromises in who you vote for, IMHO. Because one of these people WILL be President on January 20, 2009.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Does either of them come close?

Tell me, is there anyone who you WOULD have voted for other than Hillary?

Bill Richardson, even after he endorsed Obama.

[McCovey Cove Returns]

In the stupidest political move, Obama snubs Hillary's 18 million voters by not even vetting her financial records. Way to win over those 46% percent of Clinton supporters who've said they won't vote for him.
Well when she tells Obama not to vet her unless he's going to pick her as Vice President, that's all you need to know.

The Clintons' arrogance is biting them in the butt, big time. Karma is a *****, as is payback. I can't believe how stupid some of her supporters are with their "Hillary or bust" mentality. Then again, we are speaking about the democratic party.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Well when she tells Obama not to vet her unless he's going to pick her as Vice President, that's all you need to know.

Just another lie by the Obamatron spin masters.

[Jax]

Just another lie by the Obamatron spin masters.

Curious if you're gonna see the relevance...

Barack Obama is everything I hate about Bush. He's got that same arrogance, that same I'm-right-and-you're-wrong attitude, that "you're either with us or against us" mindset.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Curious if you're gonna see the relevance...

YAY, Jax finally made a relevant post.
::: passing cookie :::

[Jax]

YAY, Jax finally made a relevant post.
::: passing cookie :::

Yah, I finally was able to dumb down my post enough so Murph gets it!!!

So you admit you're acting exactly like the person you can't stand -- arrogant, I'm-right-and-you're-wrong attitude, that "you're either with us or against us."

Remember what I was telling you about a month ago -- the fifth stage is acceptance... Are you finally there?

[Tippster]

Biden is a necessary political choice. He, however, is a very risky pick.
Obama just screamed in the loudest terms, "I lack experience and I know it".Heh. Right. First you knock the guy for not having any foreign policy experience, not you try to knock the guy for owning up to that? Make up your mind.

The funny thing is he picked a guy from his side of the aisle that even McCain can't claim is inexperienced, since Biden far outweighs him in Foreign Policy.
I've said that very thing before. I just think that by not even considering her, he was making a statement, one that, IMO, he can't afford to make when it's obvious this election is going to be close.

I prefer respect be given to the candidate who won over 18 million votes in the closest primary race we've seen in my lifetime. That respect comes in the form of consideration. The fact that he didn't screams political statement and it's one that Obama can't afford to make. How do you know she wasn't under consideration? Regardless, what is your criteria for how she should have been handled? From every article or report I've read she was in the top 5 candidates, and he agreed to have an open roll call at the convention to acknowledge her voters. He did not have to do that.

Face it - your candidate lost. Now you have to ask yourself if you truly want 4 more years of Republicans running the country to appease your little pouty hissy fit about that, or if you can act like an adult and get over yourself and maybe focus on the future. Somehow i doubt the latter.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Yah, I finally was able to dumb down my post enough so Murph gets it!!!

Actually, you smartened up there on that last post. The ones before it were plain gibberish. I was starting to worry about you.

So you admit you're acting exactly like the person you can't stand -- arrogant, I'm-right-and-you're-wrong attitude, that "you're either with us or against us."

No, I'm really not. I'm stating my opinion in all of these posts, unlike your hero. It's not even close to being the same thing.

Remember what I was telling you about a month ago -- the fifth stage is acceptance... Are you finally there?

LOL, acceptance of what -- Obama's loss come November? Yeah, I'm there with ya. I'm grieving over President McCain already, but que sera sera.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

How do you know she wasn't under consideration? Regardless, what is your criteria for how she should have been handled? From every article or report I've read she was in the top 5 candidates, and he agreed to have an open roll call at the convention to acknowledge her voters. He did not have to do that.

I'm going to resist replying to this until you've informed yourself by browsing some news articles from the last few days. The bold statement proves that you haven't.

maybe focus on the future.

I am focused on the future. Obama's not on my landscape. I refuse to live for four years under a ruler who throws out the word racism to demand appeasement.

[Tripe Face]

I am focused on the future. Obama's not on my landscape. I refuse to live for four years under a ruler who throws out the word racism to demand appeasement.

So if he wins in November, do you promise to move away from America and leave Medialine for GOOD!

I'll book the movers tonight.

[Pro]

I'm grieving over President McCain already, but que sera sera.

That's like someone grieving over a death they helped to cause.

[McCovey Cove Returns]

Just another lie by the Obamatron spin masters.

No, it's a fact that came from her inner circle. At least two of these folks have said the Obama camp never asked for her finance records, which is needed if you're going to be in the mix. It's been reported in multiple places that she stated don't vet me unless I'm going to be your VP. Don't believe me? Head over to CNN.

[Mr. Pratfall]

I am focused on the future. Obama's not on my landscape. I refuse to live for four years under a ruler who throws out the word racism to demand appeasement.

So... you're not voting for him now?

[Jax]

Actually, you smartened up there on that last post. The ones before it were plain gibberish. I was starting to worry about you.

Since one was simply five dots, I can see how it would be over your head...

No, I'm really not. I'm stating my opinion in all of these posts, unlike your hero. It's not even close to being the same thing.

No, not the same thing at all. You're right, I'm wrong...

LOL, acceptance of what -- Obama's loss come November? Yeah, I'm there with ya. I'm grieving over President McCain already, but que sera sera.

She lost Murph... I'm sorry.

[Kace]

I'll book the movers tonight.

Call these guys.

http://www.seahawks.com/ConFiles/Con6886/MayflowerTruck275.jpg

If nothin' else, they'll have you moved to Indianapolis before sunrise.

[Tippster]

I'm going to resist replying to this until you've informed yourself by browsing some news articles from the last few days. The bold statement proves that you haven't.I checked. The only article pinged on Google News that included "Obama Doesn't Consider Hillary" was by Fox News and was written by the McCain camp. Please, enlighten me with one link saying she was not under consideration or part of the vetting process. I'll own up to being wrong if I am.
I am focused on the future. Obama's not on my landscape. I refuse to live for four years under a ruler who throws out the word racism to demand appeasement.Actually the one person in the primary who was directly involved in a campaign that pulled "the Race Card" was Bill Clinton.

If you don't think that a sizable chunk of folks in our great land will either vota against Obama (or stay home and not vote at all - like you) then you're living in a fantasy world. If Obama was a white man Hillary wouldn't have made it past Super Tuesday.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

So if he wins in November, do you promise to move away from America and leave Medialine for GOOD!

I'll book the movers tonight.

Hell no. I'll be here to complain and ***** and whine as much as everyone else did about Bush. Talk about giving Bush another term.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

That's like someone grieving over a death they helped to cause.

What caused it was Obama's arrogance. I had nothing to do with that.

[Kace]

Hell no.

Actually, you'll kinda have to what with that whole betting your house thing...

[Murphy Brown 2003]

No, it's a fact that came from her inner circle. At least two of these folks have said the Obama camp never asked for her finance records, which is needed if you're going to be in the mix.

Yep, I've already seen that. I wasn't questioning that tidbit.

It's been reported in multiple places that she stated don't vet me unless I'm going to be your VP. Don't believe me? Head over to CNN.

It can be reported anywhere it wants. THIS came from sources within Obama's VP committee. It didn't come from the Clintons and I have yet to see an article stating that it did.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

So... you're not voting for him now?

I haven't decided for sure yet.

[Pro]

What caused it was Obama's arrogance. I had nothing to do with that.

No, it's your spite. That's all it is. You can't accept that your heroine lost. The most important issue in the race was that Hillary Clinton be elected. Nothing else mattered. And if anyone prevented it, they're "arrogant".

Hell hath no fury.....

[Murphy Brown 2003]

I checked. The only article pinged on Google News that included "Obama Doesn't Consider Hillary" was by Fox News and was written by the McCain camp. Please, enlighten me with one link saying she was not under consideration or part of the vetting process. I'll own up to being wrong if I am.
Actually the one person in the primary who was directly involved in a campaign that pulled "the Race Card" was Bill Clinton.

Try Politico.

If you don't think that a sizable chunk of folks in our great land will either vota against Obama (or stay home and not vote at all - like you) then you're living in a fantasy world. If Obama was a white man Hillary wouldn't have made it past Super Tuesday.

That's speculation, not a fact.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

No, it's your spite. That's all it is. You can't accept that your heroine lost. The most important issue in the race was that Hillary Clinton be elected. Nothing else mattered. And if anyone prevented it, they're "arrogant".

Hell hath no fury.....

Not true. I would have voted for Bill Richardson in a heartbeat. I would have voted for John Edwards before his affair made him into a hypocritical jackass. Hell, back in December, I would have voted for Obama if he had beaten Hillary. What changed my mind is the subsequent race and his personality. To me, the man matters as much as the issues.

[Pro]

Try Politico.

Politico is not objective. It's run by the right-wing Allbritton media organization.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Politico is not objective. It's run by the right-wing Allbritton media organization.

Is the Denver Post also run by right-wing spin machines? Or are they okay?

http://news.yahoo.com/s/denverpost/20080824/pl_denverpost/10282926_1

[Kace]

Hell, back in December, I would have voted for Obama if he had beaten Hillary. What changed my mind is the subsequent race and his personality. To me, the man matters as much as the issues.

Awesome, so you should be joining the good guys. :)

http://www.lpin.org/f/images/barr3.jpg

[Pro]

To me, the man matters as much as the issues.

Well, hope you'll be smiling when those right-wing SCOTUS Justices get their knives out.....

BTW, you mentioned people who had no shot at the nomination. Not even Edwards had a shot. He, like the rest, were severely underfunded. Nice cop-out.

It's still spite. Obama "stole her show". :rolleyes:

[Tippster]

Some senior Obama supporters are irritated at how they perceive the Clintons fanned — or at a minimum failed to douse — stories that she was not even vetted as a possible vice presidential nominee. This is because she told Obama she preferred not to go through the rigorous process of document production unless she was really a serious contender, an Obama associate noted.
One senior Obama supporter said the Clinton associates negotiating on her behalf act like “Japanese soldiers in the South Pacific still fighting after the war is over.”
A prominent Obama backer said some of Clinton’s lieutentants negotiating with the Obama team are “bitter enders” who presume that, rather than the Clintons reconciling themselves to Obama’s victory, it is up to Obama to accommodate them.
In fact, some senior veterans of Clinton’s presidential campaign do believe this.Sounds to me like they were part of the process, wanted some kind of assurance of something, and upon not getting it refused to turn over the documents.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Well, hope you'll be smiling when those right-wing SCOTUS Justices get their knives out.....

BTW, you mentioned people who had no shot at the nomination. Not even Edwards had a shot. He, like the rest, were severely underfunded. Nice cop-out.

It's still spite. Obama "stole her show". :rolleyes:

How is that a cop-out? Only two candidates had a chance. I just happen to hate one. In 2004, I was behind Dean all the way. I even voted for him in the primary AFTER he was out of the race. I ended up voting for John Kerry in the general and in fact, canvassed for him in the days before the election. This isn't about Hillary losing. It's about Obama. Go ahead and call me a liar, but that is the truth.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Sounds to me like they were part of the process, wanted some kind of assurance of something, and upon not getting it refused to turn over the documents.

Sounds to me like you're believing the Obamatrons and their spin machine. I have yet to hear this confirmed by anyone outside of the Obama campaign. Gee, what reason could they have to spin? Let me think.

[Pro]

I just happen to hate one.

Of course you do. He had the audacity to challenge Hillary Clinton on even terms. How dare he? :rolleyes:

[Tripe Face]

Call these guys.

http://www.seahawks.com/ConFiles/Con6886/MayflowerTruck275.jpg

If nothin' else, they'll have you moved to Indianapolis before sunrise.

You know that post would bring some of my neighbors to tears... even now all these years later. Irsays are the excrement of the NFL.

[Kace]

I was stayin' in Maryland (Aberdeen AKA Ripken City) in the Fall of 1995 when the Cleveland Browns thing went down. I still remember people being apprehensive about taking another city's team, some even going so far as to saying they preferred their Baltimore Stallions team in the CFL (who went on to win the Grey Cup that year).

'Course less than a year later, I'm guessin' all that became rather moot.

And yes, I was there when Ripken broke the record. BIG collective cheer went out through the apartment complex we were at.

[Judge]

I was stayin' in Maryland (Aberdeen AKA Ripken City) in the Fall of 1995 when the Cleveland Browns thing went down. I still remember people being apprehensive about taking another city's team, some even going so far as to saying they preferred their Baltimore Stallions team in the CFL (who went on to win the Grey Cup that year).

'Course less than a year later, I'm guessin' all that became rather moot.

And yes, I was there when Ripken broke the record. BIG collective cheer went out through the apartment complex we were at.

Nice, and hey, how about those Cubbies?

(mercifully attempts to further hijack the thread).

[Kace]

Hey, we could have that long anticipated Cubs Vs. White Sox World Series this year.

[Judge]

Hey, we could have that long anticipated Cubs Vs. White Sox World Series this year.


Now THAT would be a contest to watch in November... (assuming there will be a couple rainouts.)

[Desert Rat]

You know that post would bring some of my neighbors to tears... even now all these years later. Irsays are the excrement of the NFL.

We have the Bidwells....hehehe

[Clubbeat]

I did not think Obama would even make it this far. I studied him along with all of the other dems who were seeking the nomination and came to the conclusion that, despite his lack of experience, he would make the best choice for president.

I don't agree with some of his policies, especially his proposed tax structure for the middle class but he for me is the best choice there is to help bring this country to it's true greatness and get us out of the shiat in Iraq!

He can't do any worse than our current administration.

As for his pick for VP, what makes a good leader in my opinion, is the people that individual selects to help him run the show. I have no problem with Obama's pick for vp. I'm curious though, who else he would select to be in his cabinet, should he win the presidency.

As for those Hillary Clinton supporters who say they'll vote for McCain or stay home, well, that is there choice....one of the nice things about America.
I'm not sure what they're so angry about. Personally, Hillary is Bill Clinton all over again and I was no fan of him. Yes he was a decent president, but if he had come clean about his affair, then maybe, Hillary would have a chance.

Finally, Obama's rise this far is inspiring to me and many other black folk in
this country because it continues to prove the point, that despite all that was done to us as a people, we're still here, and can achieve to great heights with hard work, character, intelligence and most importantly, a strong faith in God.

Again, I'm not totally sold on all Obama is proposing but the one thing that works for me is that he's talking about bringing our troops home from that meat grinder people are calling a war (which it isn't cause, there was never a declaration of war issued by congress) and getting more people to come together to work to make America truly great.

OK now, go ahead an attack!

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Yes he was a decent president, but if he had come clean about his affair, then maybe, Hillary would have a chance.

You've gotta be kidding me. Hillary didn't lose the primary because Bill Clinton lied about an affair. She lost the primary because strategic mistakes opened the door for Obama.

[Kace]

You mean it wasn't Obama playing dirty or being elitist/arrogant/badbadbadevilsomethingornother?

[Tippster]

Psy-ops.

He MADE her husband turn into an idiot. He MADE her look like a ballbreaking *****. It's all his fault.

[Kace]

I miss the good ol' days when we could just blame the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

[FD2BLK]

I miss the good ol' days when we could just blame the Vast Right Wing Conspiracy.

I blame the mysterious voices in my head. :shifty:

[Murphy Brown 2003]

You mean it wasn't Obama playing dirty or being elitist/arrogant/badbadbadevilsomethingornother?

No, and I never said it was. He was playing the political game, just as she was. It was an election. He did what he had to do to win. He didn't cause her to lose. I just didn't respect his game play and still don't respect his character.

[Kace]

Why disrespect the game plan that actually won? Y'know...since it's apparently about gameplay and all...

[wx or not]

Why disrespect the game plan that actually won? Y'know...since it's apparently about gameplay and all...
Bully, Kace! There's a winner, and there are degrees of non-winner.

[Kace]

Well, I don't know about you, but I'm havin' fun. How's everyone else?

[FD2BLK]

How's everyone else?

Well you know what they say about rainy days and Mondays....

[Clubbeat]

You've gotta be kidding me. Hillary didn't lose the primary because Bill Clinton lied about an affair. She lost the primary because strategic mistakes opened the door for Obama.

Those mistakes wouldn't have made a difference if people didn't see Bill as the lying philanderer that he is. It also didn't help that Hillary played some dirty race politics along the way (or the folks in her campaign did).

I think Hillary will have another shot at running for president and she would make a good one, should she win. However, the fact that some 30% of her supporters aren't going to rally around Obama and work to take back the white house bothers me. That they would stay home or vote for McCain says that those Hillary supporters are more about themselves, than what's good for the Democratic party. Again, it's their choice and I respect that.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Why disrespect the game plan that actually won? Y'know...since it's apparently about gameplay and all...

Because I think race-baiting and calling people who aren't racist racist is wrong. I don't respect little boys who cry wolf.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Those mistakes wouldn't have made a difference if people didn't see Bill as the lying philanderer that he is. It also didn't help that Hillary played some dirty race politics along the way (or the folks in her campaign did).

Bill Clinton's mistakes had nothing whatsoever to do with Hillary's loss. You're speculating out of your ass. And as for dirty politics, no one played dirtier than Barack Obama.

I think Hillary will have another shot at running for president and she would make a good one, should she win. However, the fact that some 30% of her supporters aren't going to rally around Obama and work to take back the white house bothers me. That they would stay home or vote for McCain says that those Hillary supporters are more about themselves, than what's good for the Democratic party. Again, it's their choice and I respect that.

Actually, many think that McCain is better for the country.

[Kace]

Because I think race-baiting and calling people who aren't racist racist is wrong. I don't respect little boys who cry wolf.

So...you call BS on him race-baiting, then call him a boy. :rockon:

[MidwestNewsGuy]

Because I think race-baiting and calling people who aren't racist racist is wrong. I don't respect little boys who cry wolf.

BRAVO!!!! And this will be what destroys him in the general election even more than Hillary supporters defecting.

[MidwestNewsGuy]

So...you call BS on him race-baiting, then call him a boy. :rockon:

He's done nothing to prove he isn't a boy. Kace...with all due respect, you're a lightweight.

[Pro]

Clinton's biggest mistake was than she never expected any Democrat to challenge her, even-up. When she (or her strategists) realized that Obama could go toe-to-toe with her, especially in fundraising, it may have been too late.

And there was a huge "wave" in this country that I've never seen before. Millions or millions of people were signing up to vote, just so they could vote for Obama in their primaries. They learned the rules about caucuses to they could participate in those.

I daresay that a majority of Democrats who had particiaped in the process in Presidential cycles in the past, favored Clinton. It was these new Democratic voters who put Obama over the top. Will they stay as excited for the November election? We'll see.

[Pro]

Actually, many think that McCain is better for the country.

Even though her views and McCain's are almost 180 degrees apart? That makes no sense. Even Clinton, herself, says that Obama's views are closer to her's than McCain's. That's why she will be urging her supporters to vote for Obama during the convention.

[halfpiperocks]

Murphy - I understand your being upset, and I do respect your conviction for your candidate, but it is time to move on. You knew Barack wasn't going to pick Hillary, and she knew she wasn't going to be picked. So now it's time to listen to your candidate one last time, and get behind the democratic nominee. There was a contest, Hillary lost, and now we have a winner, it's as simple as that. I could never be sure what would have happened to Barack's supporters if Hillary won, they might have voted for Hillary, or maybe they would have stay home, (since many of Barack over Hillary supporters will be first time voters) but they sure as hell wouldn't vote for the other guy if he was against most everything they stood for. Look it's time for the democratic party to unite, and all of this BS is not helping Hillary or Barack or the country.

I saw this ad on the news this morning. It was a woman (young - late 20s - late 30s) and she was like I'm a Clinton supporter voting for McCain. Yeah I realize that is her right - vote for who ever you want, but it is an insult to Clinton to vote instead for someone nothing like her. That is a spiteful move at best. If she wants to vote for McCain then do it. But vote for him because you agree with his ideals or his candidacy, not because your *issed at Hillary's opponent for winning. That was what the ad was about - not "I like John McCain because..." but I used to like Hillary and she lost to Barack - so *uck him. That is why regular peeps hate politics. And that is why politics suck!

So Murphy, I hope you will find peace soon. AND I hope the democrats win back the White House - will it be a magic pill and do I think only Barack and Biden can save the day? Hell no, but if they win, we can go in a different direction for a while, bring our country back to the middle. We can heal some here and overseas, focus on the majority of our country (the middle/lower class), and start to restore what it "REALLY" means to be an American. (and NO I am not suggesting we go soft on terrorist, and neither are the democrats) I am %100 sure that won't happen with McCain in charge. He's not as bad as Bush in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways he's worse.

[Pro]

I used to like Hillary and she lost to Barack - so *uck him.

That sums it up nicely.

[Jax]

Because I think race-baiting and calling people who aren't racist racist is wrong. I don't respect little boys who cry wolf.

Still waiting on those quotes...

[Kace]

He's done nothing to prove he isn't a boy.

Yep, that'll help... LOL

Kace...with all due respect, you're a lightweight.

Actually, according to the Nevada State Athletic Commission, I qualify as a Heavyweight. Though under old WWE guidelines, I'd be listed as Cruiserweight.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Murphy - I understand your being upset, and I do respect your conviction for your candidate, but it is time to move on. You knew Barack wasn't going to pick Hillary, and she knew she wasn't going to be picked. So now it's time to listen to your candidate one last time, and get behind the democratic nominee. There was a contest, Hillary lost, and now we have a winner, it's as simple as that. I could never be sure what would have happened to Barack's supporters if Hillary won, they might have voted for Hillary, or maybe they would have stay home, (since many of Barack over Hillary supporters will be first time voters) but they sure as hell wouldn't vote for the other guy if he was against most everything they stood for. Look it's time for the democratic party to unite, and all of this BS is not helping Hillary or Barack or the country.

I saw this ad on the news this morning. It was a woman (young - late 20s - late 30s) and she was like I'm a Clinton supporter voting for McCain. Yeah I realize that is her right - vote for who ever you want, but it is an insult to Clinton to vote instead for someone nothing like her. That is a spiteful move at best. If she wants to vote for McCain then do it. But vote for him because you agree with his ideals or his candidacy, not because your *issed at Hillary's opponent for winning. That was what the ad was about - not "I like John McCain because..." but I used to like Hillary and she lost to Barack - so *uck him. That is why regular peeps hate politics. And that is why politics suck!

So Murphy, I hope you will find peace soon. AND I hope the democrats win back the White House - will it be a magic pill and do I think only Barack and Biden can save the day? Hell no, but if they win, we can go in a different direction for a while, bring our country back to the middle. We can heal some here and overseas, focus on the majority of our country (the middle/lower class), and start to restore what it "REALLY" means to be an American. (and NO I am not suggesting we go soft on terrorist, and neither are the democrats) I am %100 sure that won't happen with McCain in charge. He's not as bad as Bush in a lot of ways, but in a lot of ways he's worse.

As I've said before, I don't vote strictly on party lines. I never have. I've always voted for the Democrat for President, but I've voted Republican for other races because I felt their candidate was stronger. To me, character matters. I understand that isn't the case with others and I can respect that. I have no intention of voting for John McCain. I just don't know if I will vote for Obama. He's done/said many things I will never respect nor support -- his vote on abortion legislation being one of them. If I choose to stay home on election day or (more likely) vote for the rest of the ballot and not for POTUS, it'll be because Obama doesn't represent many of the things I want in a president and I don't subscribe to the school of thought that you should vote for the lesser of two evils.

[Kace]

To me, character matters.

Then hop onboard!

http://www.lpin.org/f/images/barr3.jpg

[halfpiperocks]

And that is fine, I respect that. It's just the people who are voting for McCain as a protest vote that bother me. It REALLY is an insult to Hillary to vote for McCain, pull his record - Hillary is nothing like McCain. The ad the McCain peeps prob wrote and def paid for is what upsets me. If Hillary voters did their homework, they would know Hillary differs from McCain measurably on almost every important topic. How is voting for McCain respecting Hillary and the race she ran. It's not. If you don't want to vote for Obama, I respect that. To me that is a rational person deciding about what they feel, but voting for the guy who is nothing like her is an insult, not a tribute to her. (It would be like if I as a Obama supporter voted for McCain if Hillary won, and that would be a total protest/spite vote.) Yeah we don't need that BS right now.

[Pro]

To me, anyone who cares about the same issues that Hillary Clinton cares about should vote for Obama - if for no other reason, to keep McCain OUT of the Presidency.

To wit: Clinton is returning to a Senate that will, in all liklihood, be solidly Democratic. She can, if she choses, sponsor health care legislation. If they can overcome the filibuster, which President would be more likely to sign a Clinton-sponsored health care bill: Obama or McCain? I think the answer is obvious.

But then again, as some Clinton supporters have indicated, the only real issue for them was getting Hillary Clinton elected.

[Sultanosurf]

Murphy, I usually leave angry women alone, but nobody's ever accused me of being that smart, so here goes:

You've said Clinton's "strategic mistakes opened the door for Obama," but also say "...as for dirty politics, no one played dirtier than Barack Obama."

Just curious, can you please detail which strategic mistakes and what dirty politics?

I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just honestly curious...

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Murphy, I usually leave angry women alone, but nobody's ever accused me of being that smart, so here goes:

You've said Clinton's "strategic mistakes opened the door for Obama," but also say "...as for dirty politics, no one played dirtier than Barack Obama."

Just curious, can you please detail which strategic mistakes and what dirty politics?

I don't have a dog in the fight, I'm just honestly curious...

Strategic mistakes on Clinton's part -- not having a plan for after Super Tuesday, "misstating" what happened in Bosnia in order to tout her experience

Dirty politics on the Obama campaign's part -- calling Bill Clinton's "fairy tale" remark a racist dig to polarize race relations (weeks before Bill's SC incident), turning the other way when his campaign volunteers threatened black superdelegates

[Sultanosurf]

Thanks. Just wondering if I missed something...

[Clubbeat]

Bill Clinton's mistakes had nothing whatsoever to do with Hillary's loss. You're speculating out of your ass. And as for dirty politics, no one played dirtier than Barack Obama.



Actually, many think that McCain is better for the country.

Since you seem to think I'm speculating, then how's this....As long as Slick Willy is alive and well, and Hillary runs, she can expect the republicans to have a field day with that.

As for dirty politics, Obama just threw back the mud that was thrown at him.

And for those of you who want to support McCain, go for it. Again, it shows that some of you women...mostly white women, are so bent on having it their way that they will do anything to get this woman in office.

And how much more experience does Hillary have as a senator? Because she was the first lady? Give me a break with that. She's no more qualified to hold the office of Chief Exec. than Obama is.

Up until now, I thought you and the other Hillary supporters were level headed, but it appears that you're not. Those of you whining about not voting or voting for McCain should just go away. Obama won because more people believed in what he has to offer and Hillary's campaign machine thought it would be a cake-walk. Guess no one gave her or them the memo on how to run a primary.

Again, I think that if she gets another chance at running, she might just win.
And unlike you whinny folks who are so self-centered it's shameful, many blacks would've supported her had she won...not run around crying like many of you are although I'm not sure about my vote for her.

She lost. Get over it!

[Sultanosurf]

many blacks would've supported her had she won...not run around crying like many of you are

Good point there.

Although they've got a great nickname: PUMA - "Party Unity My Ass."

[Rambunctious]

If Hillary truly cares about the issues she has ran on, fought for and would like to advance... I have no doubt when the voting curtain closes she will vote for Obama.

To think other wise, imho, is just silly.

The Clinton's have not dedicated a great chunk of their lives trying to make positive change to sit by and let us experience another four years of the same old same old.

McCain will not use his years and years of experience to make the kind of changes the Clintons would support.

[Kace]

"misstating"

Also known as lying for those unfamiliar. ;)

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Since you seem to think I'm speculating, then how's this....As long as Slick Willy is alive and well, and Hillary runs, she can expect the republicans to have a field day with that.

Who the hell ever cared what the Republicans will have a field day with? Like Obama's so sacred and protected from Republican scorn after he voted that babies alive after a botched abortion don't have a right to medical care? Yeah, ask yourself how that's going to play in Peoria.

As for dirty politics, Obama just threw back the mud that was thrown at him.

Oh please. The race-baiting he did set race relations back in this country. It's a disgraceful display.

And for those of you who want to support McCain, go for it. Again, it shows that some of you women...mostly white women, are so bent on having it their way that they will do anything to get this woman in office.

Last time I checked, voting for McCain wouldn't put Hillary in office. But don't let the facts disturb you too much.

And how much more experience does Hillary have as a senator? Because she was the first lady? Give me a break with that. She's no more qualified to hold the office of Chief Exec. than Obama is.

Nice endorsement of your guy there. Didn't Susan Rice come under fire for similar, if not identical, comments? LOL

Those of you whining about not voting or voting for McCain should just go away.

No thanks. As an American, it's my right to vote or not vote and I choose to exercise that right and voice my opinion about it. If you don't like it, perhaps you're the one who needs to go away.

Obama won because more people believed in what he has to offer

Obama won because he's a fraud who has the "unique" talent of being able to read a teleprompter well. The more people realize it, the less support he has, which is why his poll numbers continue to decline.

And unlike you whinny folks who are so self-centered it's shameful, many blacks would've supported her had she won...not run around crying like many of you are although I'm not sure about my vote for her.

More speculation on your part. And I love your contradiction there at the end! Beautiful.

[Pro]

If Hillary truly cares about the issues she has ran on, fought for and would like to advance... I have no doubt when the voting curtain closes she will vote for Obama.

And she has said just that. It's just not enough for her cultists.

[Pro]

Last time I checked, voting for McCain wouldn't put Hillary in office. But don't let the facts disturb you too much.
No, but there are those who think a McCain win sets her up for 2012. Nevermind that more U.S. troops will be killed in Iraq, the U.S. will continue to pour more hundreds of millions of dollars down the drain there and McCain's judicial appointments will set us back by decades....to them the ONLY thing that matters is getting Hillary Clinton elected President.

[Clubbeat]

We all get that you're not happy with Obama winning but face it...he won. And if you read my post correctly, you will see that I stated that many blacks...not all but many would vote for Hillary had she won.

White women have had the opportunity to put a well qualified women into office far longer than any other group of people, outside of white men.

And you say you vote for the best person who represents your views? Well how about giving people who voted for Obama the same respect. And yes, if people voted for the guy because of his race, then so be it. Not the wisest way to vote, but again, that is the beauty of our country.

And when I was a registered Democrat, when Jesse ran the first and second time, I did not vote for the guy cause he didn't even come close to representing my views yet many blacks and a few whites did, simply because he was Jesse Jackson and because he was a brother in the race.

Truth be told, Obama, if elected president, would do well to find a place for Hillary in his cabinet. Maybe Health and Human Services Secretary (I believe that's the title, forgive me If I don't have it exact).

Listen, You get to have the last comment on this, cause I'm gonna watch this convention. I wish you luck in whoever you decide to support, but remember, being pissed caused your candidate lost is one thing. Wanting to support the other candidate or not vote at all is akin to taking your ball and going home from the playground, cause no one picked you to be on their team....

[Murphy Brown 2003]

We all get that you're not happy with Obama winning but face it...he won. And if you read my post correctly, you will see that I stated that many blacks...not all but many would vote for Hillary had she won.

Speculation.

White women have had the opportunity to put a well qualified women into office far longer than any other group of people, outside of white men.

I'm not convinced of that, but even if I was, what would that prove exactly? That's a reason to vote for Obama. Absolutely not.

And you say you vote for the best person who represents your views? Well how about giving people who voted for Obama the same respect.

Sure, when they give me enough respect to not label me racist for not voting for him.

Wanting to support the other candidate or not vote at all is akin to taking your ball and going home from the playground, cause no one picked you to be on their team....

No, it's not. Not casting a vote is my own personal statement -- neither candidate reflects the character I want in a POTUS, nor advocates the issues I find most important. Anything else would be hypocritical.

[Pro]

We all get that you're not happy with Obama winning but face it...he won. And if you read my post correctly, you will see that I stated that many blacks...not all but many would vote for Hillary had she won.

I'm not black, but I would have. As I said, if I had a favorite between the two, it was Clinton. Purely on the issues.

Truth be told, Obama, if elected president, would do well to find a place for Hillary in his cabinet. Maybe Health and Human Services Secretary (I believe that's the title, forgive me If I don't have it exact).

An offer would be nice, but Clinton would be best advised to decline. She'll be a powerful figure in a solidly Democratic Senate in 2009. She could even author the health care legislation she so strongly believes in (as do I). A President Obama wouldn't have much choice except to sign it. And her name will be attached to it, for all time. Now THAT'S a legacy!

[Dap]

Hillary Clinton assumed the nomination was hers for the taking. It never occurred to her that someone would seriously challenge her. She never had a plan B or C or D. A strategic mistake, yes, but also an enormous clue that she doesn't have the judgement to be president.

Obama, on the other hand, came out of nowhere to challenge the Clinton dynasty. A black man whose mother was once on welfare, who put himself through college and had the good sense to surround himself with a tenacious team beat her fair and square.

Hillary was stunned, refused to believe she had been beaten and wouldn't concede for weeks and months. She cried, stamped her feet and called the nation sexist, and the media unfair, yeah? I surprised she hadn't called it all a vast Republican conspiracy. That was another enormous clue to Hillary's temperament and judgement. As her lies during the campaign showed the woman simply doesn't have a grasp on reality. I'm beginning to see why Hillary continues in a marriage with a known adulterer. She simply ignores what she doesn't wish to see.

Yes, Murphy, you have the right to sit home or to vote for whomever you please. This is America where you are allowed to show your stupidity with gallant pride! George W. Bush has paved the way in that regard. Cheers!

[Kace]

I'm beginning to see why Hillary continues in a marriage with a known adulterer. She simply ignores what she doesn't wish to see.

http://www.charliedigital.com/content/binary/comment-friday-damn.jpg

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Hillary Clinton assumed the nomination was hers for the taking. It never occurred to her that someone would seriously challenge her. She never had a plan B or C or D. A strategic mistake, yes, but also an enormous clue that she doesn't have the judgement to be president.

LOL, someone who can't even spell "judgment" wants to lecture about who does and doesn't have it to be president.

Obama, on the other hand, came out of nowhere to challenge the Clinton dynasty. A black man whose mother was once on welfare, who put himself through college and had the good sense to surround himself with a tenacious team beat her fair and square.

Wah, wah, wah, things have just been so hard for poor little Obama. Perhaps that's why he's against saving the lives of innocent babies.

Hillary was stunned, refused to believe she had been beaten and wouldn't concede for weeks and months. She cried, stamped her feet and called the nation sexist, and the media unfair, yeah?

Anyone who denies the sexist remarks that were excused repeatedly during this primary campaign is too delusional to carry on a conversation of substance.

As her lies during the campaign showed the woman simply doesn't have a grasp on reality.

Actually, it's the Obamatrons, like yourself, who don't have a grasp on reality.

Yes, Murphy, you have the right to sit home or to vote for whomever you please.

Thank you for finally acknowledging that.

[ShakAttack]

This is America where you are allowed to show your stupidity with gallant pride!

...And those who dare to ask somewhat intelligent questions regarding America's current/future standing, are instantly branded as "unpatriotic."

Strange times.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

...And those who dare to ask somewhat intelligent questions regarding America's current/future standing, are instantly branded as "unpatriotic."

Or racist.

[Pro]

Kace, that's spelled "dayum!" :o

[Pro]

Or racist.
Or sexist.

[Sultanosurf]

http://i29.photobucket.com/albums/c288/locomotivebreath1901/politics/button_dems_bad_taste.jpg

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Or sexist.

I defy you to cite one quote where a Hillary surrogate suggested that if someone didn't vote for her, they were sexist.

[Sultanosurf]

Just curious II. Will you follow Clinton's call today for unity?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/livecoverage/

[Pro]

I defy you to cite one quote where a Hillary surrogate suggested that if someone didn't vote for her, they were sexist.
How many times did she say she was "victimized" by an "old boy's network"? How many times did she say that forces working against her were determined to stop a woman from being elected President? My God, we heard that ad nausuem during the primaries!

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Just curious II. Will you follow Clinton's call today for unity?

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/livecoverage/

Nope. Hillary Clinton doesn't own my vote. I vote for the person I feel represents me, my issues, and what I want in a president. That happened to be her, but now that she's out of the race, I choose for myself whether or not to support the candidate who won.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

How many times did she say she was "victimized" by an "old boy's network"? How many times did she say that forces working against her were determined to stop a woman from being elected President? My God, we heard that ad nausuem during the primaries!

In the media, sure. The media put on a sexist display. I don't remember her saying, at any point, that people who won't vote for her are sexist.

[Pro]

Not even loyal to her own candidate. That kind of says it all.

It's spite. That's all it is.

[Pro]

In the media, sure. The media put on a sexist display. I don't remember her saying, at any point, that people who won't vote for her are sexist.
She played the sexist card. You know it. I know it. EVERYBODY knows it. You're just in denial.

[Kace]

For some reason, Geraldine Ferraro just popped into my head.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

Not even loyal to her own candidate. That kind of says it all.

It's spite. That's all it is.

My "candidate" is no longer a "candidate." Unlike you, Pro, just because I agree with someone politically and would vote for them to hold office, doesn't mean I cater to everything they say. She doesn't own me, unlike your relationship with Obama apparently. THAT'S what says it all. It's a shame you don't have the will to think for yourself. No wonder you're an Obamatron.

[Kace]

For the sake of asking, are there any Obama supporters you don't consider, "trons?"

[Sultanosurf]

Thanks, Murphy. A PUMA, proud and on the prowl.

The great thing about this country is you have that right. I actually have a big thing about primaries that aren't 'open' since even though the parties pay for the election, it somehow seems un-American and limiting.to have to vote a party ticket.

[Pro]

She doesn't own me, unlike your relationship with Obama apparently. THAT'S what says it all. It's a shame you don't have the will to think for yourself. No wonder you're an Obamatron.

You didn't read what I said. I said I actually favored Clinton over Obama. I said that several times. Mostly because I was closer to her views on Iraq and health care. But now, it's over. It's decided. The Democrats will have a candidate I can vote for - its not as if Joe Lieberman somehow won the nomination ;) .

And with people like Clinton in the Senate, I feel pretty sure that a President Obama would have to slide closer to her views.

[Pro]

The great thing about this country is you have that right. I actually have a big thing about primaries that aren't 'open' since even though the parties pay for the election, it somehow seems un-American and limiting.to have to vote a party ticket.

Not at all. The public can vote for whomever they like in the general election. The primaries ask members of each party to select their candidate for that general election.

[Murphy Brown 2003]

You didn't read what I said. I said I actually favored Clinton over Obama. I said that several times. Mostly because I was closer to her views on Iraq and health care. But now, it's over. It's decided. The Democrats will have a candidate I can vote for - its not as if Joe Lieberman somehow won the nomination ;) .

And with people like Clinton in the Senate, I feel pretty sure that a President Obama would have to slide closer to her views.

How does this contradict what I said? Just because Hillary Clinton stood up and said, "Murph, vote for Obama" and I said "no," you posted that I'm not even loyal to my own candidate, implying that if Obama stood up and said, "Pro, do such and such," you'd say "Sure thing, boss" to prove your loyalty. As I said, it's a shame you can't think for yourself.