Death Penalty for Idaho Killer - Too Kind?

[Sultanosurf]

A federal jury says Joseph Duncan can be executed, but is the penalty too kind?

BOISE, Idaho (AP) - A young girl who is the sole survivor of a murderous 2005 attack on her family told detectives that Joseph Edward Duncan III raped her, tried to kill her and forced her to watch him torture, molest and kill her brother.

Federal court jurors on Tuesday watched an interview that sheriff's officers videotaped with then-8-year-old Shasta Groene soon after her rescue from the convicted pedophile.

Appearing composed and wrapped in a quilt decorated with teddy bears, she described her 9-year-old brother Dylan's death at a remote campsite in western Montana as beginning with an accidental shooting and ending with Duncan firing point-blank at the boy's head as he begged for his life.

Duncan was rooting through a plastic bin, looking for a cold beer, when a gun inside the bin accidentally went off and shot her brother in the stomach, Shasta said.

"He shot my brother right there," she said, motioning to her abdomen, "and my brother's guts were hanging out and we couldn't save him so he had to shoot him."

She also described how she and Dylan were raped and abused by Duncan, of Tacoma, Wash., whom she called "Jet."

...The interview was taped at the Kootenai Medical Center, where Shasta was being treated shortly after she was spotted with Duncan on July 2, 2005, and rescued at a restaurant in Coeur d'Alene.

On one occasion, she recounted, Duncan took Dylan into an old shack, made him stand on a bench, wrapped wire around his neck, kicked the bench out from under his legs and masturbated as the boy nearly choked to death.

"Then Jet took him down and said, 'Wake up, wake up, wake up,"' Shasta recounted, her voice steady.

Her brother screamed when he woke up because he thought he had been in heaven, she told investigators. The children were abducted from their Coeur d'Alene area home in May 2005 after Duncan fatally bludgeoned their mother, Brenda Groene, their 13-year-old brother, Slade, and their mother's fiance, Mark McKenzie...

[cinehead]

My problem with the death penalty is that it's too easy of a way out from people like this. I'd rather seem him get life without parole - at hard labor.

[Produce man]

Yep, turn him loose in general population.

[s'news]

I'm kind of at a loss as to your intention with this post, Sultan.

How can putting him to death be "too kind?" Are you saying that he should be made to suffer with life in prison? Are you saying he should be drawn and quartered?

[east coast producer]

I think he's saying the guy deserves something worse than death.. that the crime was so heinous there's not really a punishment that comes close to fitting the crime. He kidnapped the boy and girl 7 weeks before Shasta was rescued from Duncan.

Personally, I'm opposed to the death penalty, but wow... it's hard to say this guy doesn't deserve it.

Shasta: http://media.amw.com/multimedia/fileRepository/db/472/185/click_to_enlarge_shasta.jpg

Dylan: http://media.amw.com/multimedia/fileRepository/db/472/185/click_to_enlarge_dylan2.jpg

Duncan: http://www.spokesmanreview.com/stories/2005/jul/12/id_groene12.IMG_07-12-2005_HP50GEC.jpg

[Pro]

I know this probably doesn't make any sense, but while I'm opposed to the institution of capital punishment, I'm not opposed to its implementation on certain individual offenders. I'll support a candidate who says he or she is against capital punishment but I won't protest outside a prison. When a person like this is executed, I do not feel sorry for him (or her). I do feel sorry for a society that thinks it has the right to take a life in the name of "justice". To me, it's vengence, not justice.

Yeah, I know, some may find that contradictitory. And I can see that. But my views are based on what I want for society, not because I give a damn for someone who's commited a horrible act like this.

[sonorandesert]

I do feel sorry for a society that thinks it has the right to take a life in the name of "justice". To me, it's vengence, not justice.

It does seem contradictory, yes, but I see your point.

I feel sorry for a society that mandates death for certain crimes and waits 10-15 maybe 20 years before the sentence is carried out due to technical problems with their prosecution and the Appeals Court remands the case back to Superior Court.
It's possible that Duncan will still be receiving three hots and a cot in the State of Idaho Correction system in 2018 due to appeals.
What happened to victims rights to swift justice?
Yes, it is vengeance. Cut it anyway you wish, it's "eye for an eye".

Dylan should be in little league and just discovering girls, being 12 or 13 now while Shasta should be doing sleepovers with her friends and thinks that boys are yucky (can anyone explain women?).
Shasta has to remember that fateful event for the rest of her life.
Execute the bastard in a timely fashion, not 15-20 years down the road.

Or as Produce wrote, release them into GP (life without?) and let the problem take care of itself.
Rob a bank or kill a cop, you're a hero.

Touch a child?
The problem will be resolved without waiting 15-20 years.

[ewink]

Cases like this really test me.

I am against the death penalty simply because I do not think the government should have the right to kill its citizens.

But sick ****s like this guy don't really deserve to live...

[Diplomat]

This man deserves to suffer and then die.

[Laughing Angel]

That scumbag needs to suffer. Psychically, mentally, physically.

Drawing and quartering would be a proper sentence (especially the burning part).

[Pro]

What happened to victims rights to swift justice?

In American jurisprudence, the "victim" in ALL criminal cases is the "state" (or the "people"). Individuals (other than the defendant) in criminal cases have no particular "rights". That's what civil courts are for.

[Mr. Rugen]

I always think of the episode of the West Wing when President Bartlett asked his aide, Charlie, if he'd like to see the man responsible for his mom's death put to death. He said, "no sir, I'd want to do it myself."

[Sultanosurf]

I'm kind of at a loss as to your intention with this post, Sultan.

How can putting him to death be "too kind?" Are you saying that he should be made to suffer with life in prison? Are you saying he should be drawn and quartered?

Yeah, I guess so. His nickname is 'Jet', so maybe strap him in front of a Pratt & Whitney for a day. Or cook him over a campfire, like he did with poor little Dylan. Death by injection seems to humane. And no, I don't want Duncan gang-raped or whatever in prison, or the Dahmer route.

Many of us have compassionate natures, but I don't want any chance of this guy ever getting out again, whether by prison break, earthquake, or quirk of the system. At some point, society failed to do the job right after his first sex offense conviction, let alone the many other arrests, so yes I want this guy and many others like him where there's overwhelming, incontrovertible evidence - - executed.

If possible, maybe they could skip the painkiller and go straight to the lethal cocktail that is supposedly intensely painful. Or since a firing squad is still an option in Idaho, find a way to shoot him that would produce days of pain and infection.

And as usual, he wasn't the only one responsible. Hopefully there has been a review of the judges and probation officials, etc, who let this animal back into society after he proved he didn't belong.

[Roy Hobbs]

Too kind or Champ Kind?
http://img.myyearbook.com/zenhex/images/quiz9/44415/res5.jpg

WHAMMY!

[Clever Login Name]

I disagree that the death penalty represents vengeance, although I can see where an argument can be made that that's how some people might FEEL when their loved one's killer is put to death. To me, the death sentence is a PUNISHMENT ... and obviously, in a case like this, a perfectly appropriate one. There are some people who, through their actions, forfeit their own right to live. This man is one of them.

[Sultanosurf]

Roy, mebbe the cut 'n paste pic thing is getting out of your control...

[Tripe Face]

Put him in a maximum security prison, with no chance for parole or early release and let him rot until he dies. During that time I hope he agonizes and suffers tremendous mental pain over what he has done. MAYBE something will snap inside of him and he'll realize the evil he's committed and he's use his time in prison to show younger, non-lifer prisoners how to get their life together. But I doubt it will happen.

No matter what his sentence, someone like this is more likely to die in prison from something OTHER than execution (prison violence or natural causes) but when he does die, it won't be our doing.

THEN let God punish him for eternity.

I don't agree with the thought that execution is "too kind" there is no kind of suffering this man doesn't deserve.

But I agree with those who say it's beneath us as a society to have a hand in ending another person's life. We are supposed to be the greatest society on earth, and allowing the death penalty belittles us. That put's us in the same league as Saudi Arabia, Iran, China, Zimbabwe and other such places... frankly I'd like to think we're above them.

Then there's the whole conundrum of the possibility (albeit not a factor in this particular case and remote in most other capital cases) that the person sentenced to death is innocent. Death is the one sentence you can't reverse.

[The Mockingbird]

I don't see how you can be a Christian and support the death penalty, since killing someone effectively ends any chance the inmate would have for spiritual redemption, had he not already pursued it.

[Another OMB]

I don't see how you can be a Christian and support the death penalty, since killing someone effectively ends any chance the inmate would have for spiritual redemption, had he not already pursued it.

I'm not sure I follow how executing him "ends any chance the inmate would have for spiritual redemption". I mean, obviously, it ends his life. But he's got his entire life before execution for spiritual redemption. He certainly wasn't interested in it when he was committing his crimes. But then, after he's caught, he's got YEARS in prison before execution (usually at least 10) for spiritual redemption. If it doesn't happen then, it's not going to.

And there's the whole "eye for an eye" thing in the Bible and numerous instances of people being executed in the Bible. Yes, those are in the Old Testament, so I can certainly see your point as far as Christians being against the death penalty. Personally, though, I don't think God would demand the death penalty in the Old Testament then change His mind in the New. There are certain Old Testament laws that Christ freed us from, but not all of them.

One of the strongest arguments in my mind against the death penalty is the cost of it. Capital trials cost millions of dollars. When you tally up the trial and the cost to house and feed an inmate until execution versus the cost to house and feed him for life, capital punishment is actually more expensive.

I also fear the possibility of executing an innocent person.

But when I read about this guy, I don't care about the cost and it's clear he's guilty.

[Sultanosurf]

So lemme ask those here opposed to the death penalty: What if the unthinkable occurs -- there's an earthquake and the prison walls crack, a mass prison break, or even more likely, some kind of legal quirk -- and Duncan somehow gets out. (He already was released after a pedophilia conviction)

Do you want people like this back on the streets, where far too often they commit more mayhem or take other lives? Do you want to risk your family?

Sure, we can be a compassionate society, but we don't need to be stupid. And what compassion do you have for little Shasta? Don't you think that victims are forever terrorized knowing their tormentor is alive and even remotely still a threat? What compassion do you have for another inmate serving time for a lesser crime who could be killed or maimed by Duncan, which also is often the case?

I save my compassion for people who deserve it. A man who admits killing five and maybe more, supported by overwhelming evidence, needs to be removed as any future threat.

[Angel's Hell]

I don't know if him getting out of maximum security is a risk. He's likely a bigger risk for the people who would care for him in prison on a day to day basis.

I do not agree with the death penalty. But if any case deserves it, for his pure mean savagery, this one does. The people who broke into the Harvey's and killed them and their children got the death penalty, and I applaud that! (Okay,so I realize it might not make sense, but they just infuriated me to the point that I'd want to shoot the killers myself.) A child would never have been able to convict them in a court of law, if any offender was afraid that the child could witness, the child likely could not. That's a reason why I think this is so terrific! They got the guy with his own videotapes.

He's an arrogant, stupid bastard, who deserves society to be every bit as mean to him as he was to those children!

[Sultanosurf]

BTW, if you think it's not a risk, just Google 'convicted killer escape' and you'll get pages of proof..

[Tripe Face]

So lemme ask those here opposed to the death penalty: What if the unthinkable occurs -- there's an earthquake and the prison walls crack, a mass prison break, or even more likely, some kind of legal quirk -- and Duncan somehow gets out. (He already was released after a pedophilia conviction)

Do you want people like this back on the streets, where far too often they commit more mayhem or take other lives? Do you want to risk your family?

Sure, we can be a compassionate society, but we don't need to be stupid. And what compassion do you have for little Shasta? Don't you think that victims are forever terrorized knowing their tormentor is alive and even remotely still a threat? What compassion do you have for another inmate serving time for a lesser crime who could be killed or maimed by Duncan, which also is often the case?

I save my compassion for people who deserve it. A man who admits killing five and maybe more, supported by overwhelming evidence, needs to be removed as any future threat.

IS there a risk of escape? Yes, a tiny one. But what happened when those convicted killers escaped from Texas??? When one of them saw how much media attention the search for them was atrtracting he WANTED to go back to Huntsville but he was caught peacefully before that could happen. Yes the others did some horrible things while free. But they were caught. And I'll remind you that was TEXAS where they have an express lane for death row and these guys still get free... so whether or not they've been sentenced to death or life w/o parole... these guys are an escape threat.

As for compassion. I express no compassion for this man or any other murderer.. what I express is disdain for a policy that seeks to reduce violence by committing murder.

[Angel's Hell]

Try Googling "convicted maximum security murderer escape" and see what you get!

[Tripe Face]

Try Googling "convicted maximum security murderer escape" and see what you get!

Try Googling, "Angel's Hell promised to leave but never did and has been a pain in the ass moron ever since" and see what you get.

[Clever Login Name]

Try Googling, "Angel's Hell promised to leave but never did and has been a pain in the ass moron ever since" and see what you get.

Tripe, I've noticed that you're decidely more cranky in your Medialine dealings the Monday after a severe Deadskins beating. I guess we have a lot more of this to deal with in the coming months.

Not to say, however, that your analysis of AH isn't true.

[wx or not]

I don't see how you can be a Christian and support the death penalty, since killing someone effectively ends any chance the inmate would have for spiritual redemption, had he not already pursued it.
Mock, I am a Christian, however, I cannot support life in prison for anyone who dares to touch a child. Not only because I am a father, but more because I do not wish to see:
1. My tax dollars support scum like this when those dollars are better used elsewhere; and
2. Some criminal who has committed such a heinous crime, and painted himself into a moral corner, that sudden redemption from God will solve all problems. It may soothe the heart of that criminal, but not those who continue to suffer.
I am by nature a pacifist, EXCEPT in atrocious cases like this.

[Tippster]

He raped and killed children. Innocents.

I'll pull the trigger myself without a single qualm. We euthanize rabid dogs, this animal is no different. He's sick and he needs to be put down. Done.

[halfpiperocks]

This guy deserves worse than the death penalty. No doubt about that. The only reason I have an issue with the death penalty is that all too often death row cases are repealed because of shady or overzealous police work. There should be two or three things present, in order for the death penalty to be on the table. Dna, or confession, and something more than a eye witness account. I realize that when a person is found guilty, that is it, and if it's a death penalty case then so be it, but I also feel like too many people (usually those of low economic means) are wrongly convicted. If our justice system were near perfect, I could be sure the person deserved the death penalty, but it is so far from it, so I shy away from it. In this case, there is no question about guilt. This lowlife scum deserves to go away and out of public eye where he can't get any more attention. He's a monster!

[Sultanosurf]

IS there a risk of escape? Yes, a tiny one. But what happened when those convicted killers escaped from Texas??? When one of them saw how much media attention the search for them was atrtracting he WANTED to go back to Huntsville but he was caught peacefully before that could happen.

'Guess you're forgetting police officer Aubrey Hawkins, who was having Christmas Eve dinner with his wife and son a few blocks away when he caught the call on the escapees robbing a store. Hawkins was gunned down and killed by the escapees before they were " caught peacefully."

And Angel's Hell, did you even do some research, or just try a snappy comeback? Because there are not only pages of stories on escaped killers, but far too many stories I've covered personally.

There are some extremely rare instances of escapes by inmates awaiting execution, but there sure aren't any after.

Maybe some of you folks consider execution 'committing murder' and below us, but the rest of us (Including the Supreme Court) consider it an obligation in protecting society.

[Pro]

Maybe some of you folks consider execution 'committing murder' and below us, but the rest of us (Including the Supreme Court) consider it an obligation in protecting society.

And that's where we disagree. I see it as an act of vengence. "Feel-good" justice.

[Sultanosurf]

Well, you're correct there. I can "feel good" that they're never going to destroy another family or life again.

BTW, ever witness an execution, Pro? It's a true challenge of the belief system if you support capital punishment. For about as long as it takes to talk to the victim's family afterward...

[Pro]

BTW, ever witness an execution, Pro? It's a true challenge of the belief system if you support capital punishment. For about as long as it takes to talk to the victim's family afterward...

No I never have. But I have talked to several former prison wardens who have. It caused them to quit their jobs and work against the death penalty.

And criminal justice is not for the benefit of the freinds and relatives of the person who has been killed. Criminal justice is for the benefit of the state (or "the people").

[Clever Login Name]

I've witnessed two, and they are practically the most benign events you could imagine ... the only emotional "oomf" you feel is wondering what must be going through the condemned person's mind at a time like that and the finality of the process. You regard it as vengeance ... I say it's punishment ... and in cases like this, it's richly deserved.

[Sultanosurf]

No I never have. But I have talked to several former prison wardens who have. It caused them to quit their jobs and work against the death penalty.

And criminal justice is not for the benefit of the freinds and relatives of the person who has been killed. Criminal justice is for the benefit of the state (or "the people").

Several? Doesn't that usually mean more than two? And since there's only one execution site prison in each state that would mean you've talked to three or more wardens who have quit their jobs and worked against the death penalty? Sorry, but I just haven't heard of former wardens in three or more states working against execution.

I'm not trying to get in a log-rolling contest with you, but the two executions I witnessed were benign like the ones Clever saw -- except for the victims' families. They felt that justice was done, which is why our legal system provides the opportunity for them to witness the act. One victim's sister was deeply religious, and forgave the killer and prayed for his soul. But she still felt he deserved to be executed. And a woman who survived a brutal rape and attempted murder while her boyfriend was callously killed trying to protect her was there to see the man that had brought her years of nightmares removed as a threat .

Nobody wants an innocent person executed, which is why the reviews prompted by the Innocence Project and DNA advances have been important and admirable. And it's also arguable whether the death penalty is a deterrent or could actually entice criminals to eliminate witnesses. But once they have committed the act, and there's overwhelming evidence, yes, criminal justice is to protect the people, and execution remains the ultimate protection.

[Pro]

criminal justice is to protect the people, and execution remains the ultimate protection.

It is the ultimate vengence, done by a society that somehow feels they have the right kill in the name of "justice".

What countries still has capital punishment? The U.S., China, Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. Singapore, Japan and India still have it "on the books" but no one has been executed in those countries in years. The European Union specifically prohibits member nations for imposing capital punishment.

[Sultanosurf]

Yup, you're right. The ultimate.

I'm still curious which three or more states you've seen where there are wardens working against execution.

[Pro]

Yup, you're right. The ultimate.

I'm still curious which three or more states you've seen where there are wardens working against execution.


One was from Mississippi, I think. This was back in the 90's when three former prison wardens were on a tour sponsored by a national anti-death penaly group. I field-produced our coverage of it, so our anchor could V/O.

[Sultanosurf]

Thanks, interesting.

From "Against Capital Punishment" by Herbert Haines, I found three wardens at Sing Sing, one at San Quentin, an administrator in Illinois, and the warden from Mississippi all involved in the anit-death penalty movement. As I said earlier, the reviews by the Innocence Project and DNA advances have made huge inroads, and it would be informative to hear their opinions now.

Look, I'm sure not suggesting China or Iran's level, but in cases like this where there are prior convictions, a confession, and overwhelming evidence, do you really want to take a chance that they could be back out to harm your family or you? Or a guard? Or someone else in the prison population?

Let's get back to Duncan and his heinous crimes. Do you really want to take that chance with your family?

[Pro]

I do not think there is ANY chance people like that will ever be released, or even escape. It hasn't happened yet, where a person sentenced to life without parole has been released or escaped. If you want to keep "death row" as absolute solitary lifetime confinment for those offenders, fine with me.

[Diggin' Bear]

I've witnessed two executions myself, and in contrast to the amazingly horrific acts that the condemned person carried out against their victims, their executions were about as humane as they could be.

Vengeance?

Let's examine that for a minute. This animal carries out violent torture against a kid. He does so repeatedly. Then, after accidentally shooting the kid, he terrifies him one last time for a few seconds before he ends his life.

Vengeance? Yeah, maybe.

But what about the guy who I saw executed who watched his girlfriend accomplice shoot a cop in a shopping center parking lot, who started to go on the run, but decided to turn back to the wounded man and fire THREE more rounds into his body - while the guy was concious and begging him not to do it?

Vengeance? Yeah, maybe.

But is it justified?

Some people turn vengeance into a dirty word. But if it's justice - and I defy anyone to defend either of those two animals - then it's probably defensable.

By the way, the second guy I saw died with a minister beside him, reading the Psalms and talking quietly. If you ask me, his passing was far more humane than the police officer he killed, who had just a few seconds to pray for mercy and then die.

[Pro]

Some people turn vengeance into a dirty word. But if it's justice - and I defy anyone to defend either of those two animals - then it's probably defensable.

IMO, vengence is not justice. And no one is defending the offenders.

Why do you think the U.S. is the ONLY Western nation still to have the death penalty?

[wx or not]

Pro, to me this is a simple black/white issue. No shades of gray. What is the antonym of vengeance? Forgiveness. I cannot espouse forgiveness for the level of inhumaneness that occurs when a child is harmed. So, what remains? Life in prison? Shades of forgiveness, allowing a chance for the individual to "redeem" himself. Like a leopard, there is no changing of spots. Once a molester, always a molester. Never on my watch. NO shades of gray.

[Another OMB]

This isn't a perfect analogy, I know. But what do we do when a grizzly bear or mountain lion kills a human? We hunt it down and kill it. Is that vengeance? Are we "punishing" the animal? I don't think so. Should we lock the animal up in a cage the rest of its life?

[Tripe Face]

Tripe, I've noticed that you're decidely more cranky in your Medialine dealings the Monday after a severe Deadskins beating. I guess we have a lot more of this to deal with in the coming months.

Not to say, however, that your analysis of AH isn't true.

It's the preseason... I just hope Jason Taylor's leg heals. (I wouldn't mind seeing them sign a couple of free agent, beef-eatin', iron-pumpin' O linemen. I just don't see that line of ours getting the Skins much further than NFC East Champions.

[Sultanosurf]

One thing for sure, OMB's grizzly is sure gonna be busy with a Redskin fan...

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/bill_syken/09/15/scorecard.daily/p1_redskins.jpg

[Clever Login Name]

One thing for sure, OMB's grizzly is sure gonna be busy with a Redskin fan...

http://i.a.cnn.net/si/2006/writers/bill_syken/09/15/scorecard.daily/p1_redskins.jpg

I thought that was one of their cheerleaders.

[Another OMB]

Looks like, in this case, it was the reverse. I think HE ate a grizzly.