Hey tin foil hat brigade..check this out

[Obewon]

Feds: Fires took down building next to twin towers
Aug 21 01:46 PM US/Eastern
By DEVLIN BARRETT
Associated Press Writer
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GAITHERSBURG, Md. (AP) - Federal investigators said Thursday they have solved a mystery of the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks: the collapse of World Trade Center building 7, a source of long-running conspiracy theories.

The 47-story trapezoid-shaped building sat north of the World Trade Center towers, across Vesey Street in lower Manhattan. On Sept. 11, it was set on fire by falling debris from the burning towers, but skeptics have long argued that fire and debris alone should not have brought down such a big steel-and-concrete structure.

Scientists with the National Institute of Standards and Technology say their three-year investigation of the collapse determined the demise of WTC 7 was actually the first time in the world a fire caused the total failure of a skyscraper.

"The reason for the collapse of World Trade Center 7 is no longer a mystery," said Dr. Shyam Sunder, the lead investigator on the NIST team.

Investigators also concluded that the collapse of the nearby towers broke the city water main, leaving the sprinkler system in the bottom half of the building without water.

The building has been the subject of a wide range of conspiracy theories for the last seven years, partly because the collapse occurred about seven hours after the twin towers came down. That fueled suspicion that someone intentionally blew up the building in a controlled demolition.

Critics like Mike Berger of the group 9/11 Truth said he wasn't buying the government's explanation.

"Their explanation simply isn't sufficient. We're being lied to," he said, arguing that there is other evidence suggesting explosives were used on the building.

Sunder said his team investigated the possibility that an explosion inside the building brought it down, but found there was no large boom or other noise that would have occurred with such a detonation. Investigators also created a giant computer model of the collapse, based partly on news footage from CBS News, that they say shows internal column failure brought down the building.

Investigators also ruled out the possibility that the collapse was caused by fires from a substantial amount of diesel fuel that was stored in the building, most of it for generators for the city's emergency operations command center.

The 77-page report concluded that the fatal blow to the building came when the 13th floor collapsed, weakening a critical steel support column that led to catastrophic failure.

"When this critical column buckled due to lack of floor supports, it was the first domino in the chain," said Sunder.

The NIST investigators issued more than a dozen building recommendations as a result of their inquiry, most of which repeat earlier recommendations from their investigation into the collapse of the two large towers.

In both instances, investigators concluded that extreme heat caused some steel beams to lose strength, causing further failures throughout the buildings until the entire structure succumbed.

The recommendations include building skyscrapers with stronger connections and framing systems to resist the effects of thermal expansion, and structural systems designed to prevent damage to one part of a building from spreading to other parts.

A spokeswoman for the leaseholder of the World Trade Center, developer Larry Silverstein, praised the government's work.

"Hopefully this thorough report puts to rest the various 9/11 conspiracy theories, which dishonor the men and women who lost their lives on that terrible day," said Silverstein spokeswoman Dara McQuillen.

In discussing the findings, the investigator Sunder acknowledged that some may still not be convinced, but insisted the science behind their findings is "incredibly conclusive."

"The public should really recognize the science is really behind what we have said," he said, adding: "The obvious stares you in the face."

[Kace]

Now we just need to connect this with the fine art of tinfoil hats.

[east coast producer]

The 47-story trapezoid-shaped building sat north of the World Trade Center towers, across Vesey Street in lower Manhattan.

This whole investigation raises another question: What the #*&$(#*$ is a "trapezoid"?

[Tripe Face]

This whole investigation raises another question: What the #*&$(#*$ is a "trapezoid"?

What's the matter... did you sleep through 5th grade math?

[Mighty Dyckerson]

What the #*&$(#*$ is a "trapezoid"?

It's approximately the same shape as your kidney stone.

[Clever Login Name]

It's approximately the same shape as your kidney stone.

But the stone's edges are much, much sharper.

[tater]

This whole investigation raises another question: What the #*&$(#*$ is a "trapezoid"?

It's kinda like a rhombus or a parallelogram.

[Jane Craig]

A trapezoid is a quadrilateral that sort of wants to be a triangle... two parallel sides and the other two are wildcards.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/b/b7/Isosceles_trapezoid.jpg

[TVMattNYC]

Wow. A federal agency has come out with the results of its "investigation" and -- surprise surprise -- they are in total agreement with the government's own story about what transpired during 9/11.

And we all know that if government investigators say it, it MUST be so!

[cinehead]

Obewon, you're pretty naive if you think any report from a federal agency will satisfy conspiracy theorists.

[Tripe Face]

This whole investigation raises another question: What the #*&$(#*$ is a "trapezoid"?

In America a trapezoid is any four-sided figure in which at least two of the sides are parallel to each other.

Hence every square is a trapezoid, but not every trapezoid is a square.

Back to the conspiracy theories.

[Kace]

Freakazoid is not a square.

http://www.wavplanet.com/freakazoid.jpg

[wx or not]

Freakazoid rocks! I love how he does the weather:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-HNNho-j9jM

[amabala]

Mon Feb 14 2005


AP - Firefighters brought a blaze in one of Madrid's tallest office
buildings under control after struggling for nearly 24 hours to contain it,
officials said.

The fire, which left seven people slightly injured, broke out in the
32-storey Windsor building on Saturday about 22.20 GMT (09.20 AEDT).

Thick smoke and searing temperatures prevented firefighters from entering
the building until late on Sunday.

The office tower was heavily damaged but did not collapse, as had been
feared.

[Roy Hobbs]

Why did they fear it if it's "not possible." ?

[amabala]

Why did they fear it if it's "not possible." ?

Because of 9 11.

[markminn]

Let's see. Over 300 firefighters, especially the ones who knew the WTC buildings best were dead, the water lines were cut from the fall of the towers, everyone was out of WTC7, and everyone else was at ground zero looking for survivors. Of course the building fell down just because it was on fire. ANY building burning for hours and hours will fall.

[east coast producer]

What's the matter... did you sleep through 5th grade math?

What's the matter... did you sleep through sarcasm class?

J@ck@$$.

[east coast producer]

In America a trapezoid is any four-sided figure in which at least two of the sides are parallel to each other.

It took you 33 minutes of research following your original post to figure it out? This answers sooo many questions about you.

[east coast producer]

Freakazoid is not a square.

Kace is not straight.

http://www.gimp.org/tutorials/Straight_Line/drawnline.png

[TVMattNYC]

Let's see. Over 300 firefighters, especially the ones who knew the WTC buildings best were dead, the water lines were cut from the fall of the towers, everyone was out of WTC7, and everyone else was at ground zero looking for survivors. Of course the building fell down just because it was on fire. ANY building burning for hours and hours will fall.

Or if it's DETONATED after the owner -- who incidentally went on the record as saying this -- "pulls" it.

[Kace]

Kace is not straight.

I've been officially, "out," for a year now as of this week. :rockon:

[east coast producer]

I've been officially, "out," for a year now as of this week. :rockon:

Well I'm playing catch up. I just learned about it a few week ago when I caught you and Dyck making out in the supply closet. :loveyou: :loveyou: :hug:

[Kace]

Nope. I'm not in the closet anymore. As for Dyckerson...well, you'll have to take that up with him.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

I've been officially, "out," for a year now as of this week. :rockon:

Kace, ladies and gentlemen! The second gayest poster on Medialine!!!

(TVMatt is #1, of course.)

[Kace]

Yeah, but that would put Matt at #3, #1. :)

[Tripe Face]

It took you 33 minutes of research following your original post to figure it out? This answers sooo many questions about you.


It took zero minutes of research to figure it out. I knew it.
Actually, I figured everyone knew, even you, putz.

But subsequent posts proved there were others who are geometerically challanged so I decided to give a legitimate answer to your smart-ass post.

[east coast producer]

... so I decided to give a legitimate answer to your smart-ass post.

That's smart-@$$ to you!

[Tripe Face]

Well I'm playing catch up. I just learned about it a few week ago when I caught you and Dyck making out in the supply closet. :loveyou: :loveyou: :hug:

Jealousy rears its ugly head.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

Jealousy rears its ugly head.

I wouldn't say "rears" if I were you.

[ewink]

Something always has to be the first of something.

Truthers are ****ing morons.

[FD2BLK]

Obewon, you're pretty naive if you think any report from a federal agency will satisfy conspiracy theorists.


Exactly.

[TVMattNYC]

If the government is involved in a conspiracy and we suspect it, why should we believe any GOVERNMENT study "refuting" the conspiracy allegations??

FBI: "We believe Tony Soprano is guilty of murder, racketeering, and a host of other offenses."

CARMELLA SOPARANO: "I've just concluded an in-depth 3-year study of my husband and have found that those charges are unfounded."

FBI: "Well then! Case closed!"

[Ralphie the buffalo]

Lay out a brief outline of what you think happened Matt.
I'm interested to read what you, a resident New Yorker, have to say.

[Jax]

If the government is involved in a conspiracy and we suspect it, why should we believe any GOVERNMENT study "refuting" the conspiracy allegations??

FBI: "We believe Tony Soprano is Superman and involved in gay sex with the Justice Leauge. There may also be some Marvel/DC cross promotion and Tony, AKA Superman, may be Storm's real father."

CARMELLA SOPARANO: "I've just concluded an in-depth 3-year study of my husband and have found that those charges are unfounded."

FBI: "Well then! Case closed!"

When the conspiracy theory is totally stupid, then there's no reason to not believe those investigated...

[TVMattNYC]

When the conspiracy theory is totally stupid, then there's no reason to not believe those investigated...

Please. Do tell. Why do you think it's "stupid"?

[Jax]

Please. Do tell. Why do you think it's "stupid"?

Because, despite the objections of Produce, I have common sense.

[TVMattNYC]

Because, despite the objections of Produce, I have common sense.

That's not an answer.

[Jax]

That's not an answer.

Lay out a brief outline of what you think happened Matt.
I'm interested to read what you, a resident New Yorker, have to say.

Sure it is... Tell me why you believe in Unicorns, Wizards and Santa? All three just as logical as the 9/11 truth movement.

[TVMattNYC]

Sure it is... Tell me why you believe in Unicorns, Wizards and Santa? All three just as logical as the 9/11 truth movement.

Now you're just making absurd correlations.

[Kace]

What's wrong with Unicorns? :(

[TVMattNYC]

What's wrong with Unicorns? :(


Don't know know? If Jax hasn't seen them, then they simply don't exist.

[Jax]

What's wrong with Unicorns? :(

They used their magic to bring down WTC 7.

[Kace]

If Jax hasn't seen them, then they simply don't exist.

He needs to hang out with the Kelkans in Albuquerque.

[TVMattNYC]

They used their magic to bring down WTC 7.

No.

Someone ELSE did that.

And MAGIC had nothing to do with it.

[Jax]

Don't know know? If Jax hasn't seen them, then they simply don't exist.

You realize you're now arguing the existence of Unicorns, right?

[TVMattNYC]

You realize you're now arguing the existence of Unicorns, right?

No. I'm arguing that you can't DISPROVE the existence of unicorns.

[Clever Login Name]

All you need to know ...

[Tripe Face]

My question is WHY.

TV Matt... and the rest of you... WHY? Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD, CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain ANYONE? It was already burning out of control, anything inside that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire. Or stolen afterwards and the disappearence blamed on the fire.

So what was the REASON for this conspiracy?

Please enlighten me.

[amabala]

Building 7 wasn't badly on fire.

[Tripe Face]

Building 7 wasn't badly on fire.

So the collapse of two burning, 110-story buildings across the street from Building 7 didn't set that buidling on fire??? And if it DID set it on fire, who was gonna fight that fire... how was it going to be put out?

NO ONE. NOTHING.

It was badly on fire... look at the video of that day.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

Building 7 wasn't badly on fire.

What the hell is "badly" on fire? Either it's on fire or it isn't.

[Kace]

"There are only two conditions an oven can be in! Heated or Unheated! Preheated is a meaningless *****ing term!!!"

http://www.tubearoo.com/m3/91442/125918_part1_1.jpg

[TVMattNYC]

So the collapse of two burning, 110-story buildings across the street from Building 7 didn't set that buidling on fire??? And if it DID set it on fire, who was gonna fight that fire... how was it going to be put out?

NO ONE. NOTHING.

It was badly on fire... look at the video of that day.

YOU look at the video that day. Take a REALLY good look at it. You'll see, just before each tower collapses, coordinated little puffs of smoke shoot out from the lower, undamaged floors, perfectly consistent with demolition charges.

[Tripe Face]

YOU look at the video that day. Take a REALLY good look at it. You'll see, just before each tower collapses, coordinated little puffs of smoke shoot out from the lower, undamaged floors, perfectly consistent with demolition charges.

Matt, answer my question WHY? (see above post)

Why conspire to destroy WTC 7?

And those puffs of smoke were probably windows being exploded out by the sudden pressure of tons of concrete and steel crashing down on the inside of the building.

[TVMattNYC]

My question is WHY.

TV Matt... and the rest of you... WHY? Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD, CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain ANYONE? It was already burning out of control, anything inside that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire. Or stolen afterwards and the disappearence blamed on the fire.

So what was the REASON for this conspiracy?

Please enlighten me.

The WTC was a notorious money-LOSER. Indeed, why would Silverstein take on a multi-billion dollar 99-year lease of a complex that had been losing money?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain anyone? Well, if it was considered an act of terrorism it would have gained Silverstein BILLIONS of dollars. Destroying the entire WTC complex, as we've all seen, gained the economic elites a mandate from the American people to use Americans' tax dollars to their profit for full-scale war in the Middle East.

It's interesting that you mention that "anything that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire."

Not really. Demolition residue would have still been traceable on the steel debris. But -- surprise surprise! -- within a matter of just weeks, evidence from the largest crime scene in our nation's history was allowed to be removed ... MELTED DOWN ... and refashioned into the U.S.S. New York before any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation could have begun on the steel itself.

And as far as your other question: "Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD (actually "FDNY"), CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?"

You apparently don't understand how a successful conspiracy works. "Let not the right hand know what the left is doing." Those in positions of power who are moving all the chess pieces don't tell everyone everything. Everyone is on a strictly "need to know" basis. Silverstein sought financial advice from the very elites who planned this despicable act, and they merely encouraged him to sign a multibillion dollar lease with a wink and a nod. Did Silverstein know what exactly was going to happen? Probably not.

The NYPD and FDNY are merely footsoldiers, doing the bidding of their superiors. They are at the bottom of the ladder, and are told to follow orders. Nothing more. They did what they were supposed to do that day, which is try to save lives.

The federal government. An ENORMOUS bureaucracy that despite what you might think, because of its myriad layers, makes pushing through an invisible agenda (or "conspiracy", if you will) easier than you think. Again ... everyone is strictly on a need to know basis. Ah, but the skeptics say ... why didn't anyone ask questions?

Indeed. Why didn't they? Why don't YOU? Anyone who works for someone else understands this phenomenon: asking too many questions, or second-guessing your boss is INSUBORDINATION. It's just not done, if you want to keep your job. How many of you, at your stations, think "why the f*** are we doing this/why the f*** did they hire her/why the f*** ...."?? But do any of you actually march into your GM's office and demand answers? I think not. You, like most everyone else in our employer-based capitalistic society, have families, mortgages, car payments, and bills, and are in no position to question authority, rock the boat, and jeopardize your livelihood. So you simply carry out orders and put crap on the air. Or start carefully turning your own tiny little cog in the terrible machine that will become 9/11.

But what about the media? "Why would CBS News 'conspire'?" Let me ask you: Why WOULDN'T it, if it has no idea that it's part of the conspiracy? Let me ask all of you: on 9/11, what did you report as "fact", and where did you get those "facts"? Think carefully. I was here in New York, working at one of the networks, putting the information on the air as soon as it became available. From my newsroom. 2 miles from Ground Zero. Without having actually "witnessed" anything. Getting only my information from the wires. Because it was my job.

And there was certainly no lack of information to be had. Within minutes, all of the requisite "pieces" of the puzzle started falling into place quite perfectly. It's interesting how quickly we at the networks turned away from actual eyewitness reports (most of whom were saying that what they saw were not commercial jets, but cargo jets without windows) and started relying strictly on press releases and "official" information for our "facts".

Even more unbelievable is the fact that by 11:00 AM, our federal government had the entire crime figured out, right down to releasing names and PHOTOGRAPHS of the alleged hijackers! TWO HOURS! Our federal government took HOW LONG to react to Hurricane Katrina, but within two hours had figured out a complex terrorist plot, complete with names and photographs to release to the media. Indeed ... I even remember a fleeting thought to myself as I was coordinating the "graphicizing" of those photos ... "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" ... but the thought was only fleeting ... we were understandably all numb from the sheer shock of what had just happened, and were still having difficulty processing the horrible reality.

I'm not saying that any of this is true. But what I'm saying is that I, as a journalist, refuse to stop asking questions until someone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping the conspiracy intact can prove me wrong.

[TVMattNYC]

Matt, answer my question WHY? (see above post)

Why conspire to destroy WTC 7?

And those puffs of smoke were probably windows being exploded out by the sudden pressure of tons of concrete and steel crashing down on the inside of the building.

If that were the case, those puffs would be coming out of the floors immediately below the fire. Not 20, 30, 50 stories down.

[TAFKA wacowx]

Than Matt...why didn't Deutsche Bank 'pull' their building? They had to do a costly demolition as we all know from the news reports. Seemed like a good opportunity to get themselves a nice insurance bonus too.

[Tripe Face]

If that were the case, those puffs would be coming out of the floors immediately below the fire. Not 20, 30, 50 stories down.

And you know this because of you years of structural engineering studies and working in the building implosion business?

Does a too full balloon always pop closest to the lips of the person inflating it?

[Kace]

Was Deutsche Bank part of the World Trade Center?

[TVMattNYC]

Was Deutsche Bank part of the World Trade Center?

No. it was merely collateral damage.

[TVMattNYC]

Than Matt...why didn't Deutsche Bank 'pull' their building? They had to do a costly demolition as we all know from the news reports. Seemed like a good opportunity to get themselves a nice insurance bonus too.

Dude, you don't "pull" a building unless it already has explosives wired into it. And unless you're looking to destroy your building prior to 9/11, why the hell would you do that??

[amabala]

The WTC was a notorious money-LOSER. Indeed, why would Silverstein take on a multi-billion dollar 99-year lease of a complex that had been losing money?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain anyone? Well, if it was considered an act of terrorism it would have gained Silverstein BILLIONS of dollars. Destroying the entire WTC complex, as we've all seen, gained the economic elites a mandate from the American people to use Americans' tax dollars to their profit for full-scale war in the Middle East.

It's interesting that you mention that "anything that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire."

Not really. Demolition residue would have still been traceable on the steel debris. But -- surprise surprise! -- within a matter of just weeks, evidence from the largest crime scene in our nation's history was allowed to be removed ... MELTED DOWN ... and refashioned into the U.S.S. New York before any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation could have begun on the steel itself.

And as far as your other question: "Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD (actually "FDNY"), CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?"

You apparently don't understand how a successful conspiracy works. "Let not the right hand know what the left is doing." Those in positions of power who are moving all the chess pieces don't tell everyone everything. Everyone is on a strictly "need to know" basis. Silverstein sought financial advice from the very elites who planned this despicable act, and they merely encouraged him to sign a multibillion dollar lease with a wink and a nod. Did Silverstein know what exactly was going to happen? Probably not.

The NYPD and FDNY are merely footsoldiers, doing the bidding of their superiors. They are at the bottom of the ladder, and are told to follow orders. Nothing more. They did what they were supposed to do that day, which is try to save lives.

The federal government. An ENORMOUS bureaucracy that despite what you might think, because of its myriad layers, makes pushing through an invisible agenda (or "conspiracy", if you will) easier than you think. Again ... everyone is strictly on a need to know basis. Ah, but the skeptics say ... why didn't anyone ask questions?

Indeed. Why didn't they? Why don't YOU? Anyone who works for someone else understands this phenomenon: asking too many questions, or second-guessing your boss is INSUBORDINATION. It's just not done, if you want to keep your job. How many of you, at your stations, think "why the f*** are we doing this/why the f*** did they hire her/why the f*** ...."?? But do any of you actually march into your GM's office and demand answers? I think not. You, like most everyone else in our employer-based capitalistic society, have families, mortgages, car payments, and bills, and are in no position to question authority, rock the boat, and jeopardize your livelihood. So you simply carry out orders and put crap on the air. Or start carefully turning your own tiny little cog in the terrible machine that will become 9/11.

But what about the media? "Why would CBS News 'conspire'?" Let me ask you: Why WOULDN'T it, if it has no idea that it's part of the conspiracy? Let me ask all of you: on 9/11, what did you report as "fact", and where did you get those "facts"? Think carefully. I was here in New York, working at one of the networks, putting the information on the air as soon as it became available. From my newsroom. 2 miles from Ground Zero. Without having actually "witnessed" anything. Getting only my information from the wires. Because it was my job.

And there was certainly no lack of information to be had. Within minutes, all of the requisite "pieces" of the puzzle started falling into place quite perfectly. It's interesting how quickly we at the networks turned away from actual eyewitness reports (most of whom were saying that what they saw were not commercial jets, but cargo jets without windows) and started relying strictly on press releases and "official" information for our "facts".

Even more unbelievable is the fact that by 11:00 AM, our federal government had the entire crime figured out, right down to releasing names and PHOTOGRAPHS of the alleged hijackers! TWO HOURS! Our federal government took HOW LONG to react to Hurricane Katrina, but within two hours had figured out a complex terrorist plot, complete with names and photographs to release to the media. Indeed ... I even remember a fleeting thought to myself as I was coordinating the "graphicizing" of those photos ... "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" ... but the thought was only fleeting ... we were understandably all numb from the sheer shock of what had just happened, and were still having difficulty processing the horrible reality.

I'm not saying that any of this is true. But what I'm saying is that I, as a journalist, refuse to stop asking questions until someone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping the conspiracy intact can prove me wrong.

Amen !!

[TVMattNYC]

And you know this because of you years of structural engineering studies and working in the building implosion business?

Does a too full balloon always pop closest to the lips of the person inflating it?

I know this because of my years of being around mechanical engineers who do this kind of design work (including my own father, who in his *40* years of such experience believes that without some sort of controlled demolition it would have been utterly impossible for "fires" to bring not one but TWO quarter-of-a-mile high buildings down so perfectly, when it takes WEEKS of planning just to perfectly bring down an abandoned 10-story department store building).

[Kace]

Not sure if they'll prove you wrong or right, but they will come at ya 'til you see things their way. ;)

[ShakAttack]

The WTC was a notorious money-LOSER. Indeed, why would Silverstein take on a multi-billion dollar 99-year lease of a complex that had been losing money?
...............................................

I'm not saying that any of this is true. But what I'm saying is that I, as a journalist, refuse to stop asking questions until someone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping the conspiracy intact can prove me wrong.

Matt, that was a very well-written response, especially the conclusive paragraph. Thank you.

With the mention of Silverstein's name -- now you'll have to worry that Dip will come after you for being anti-Semitic and/or a self-hating Jew! :rolleyes:

[Sir Dropham Pants]

It's interesting how quickly we at the networks turned away from actual eyewitness reports (most of whom were saying that what they saw were not commercial jets, but cargo jets without windows)

But they weren't cargo planes. It was on tv and everything.
I also heard a sound bite that day from a guy who swore it was a fighter plane that hit the building. It wasn't.
I'd posit that the nets turned away from such eyewitness reports because they were not accurate.
In my town, a reporter could go cover a car wreck and use a sound bite from a witness who claimed the crash was caused by nuclear-powered hovercraft running a red light.
He could also get a sound bite from a neighbor at a drive by shooting scene who could swear that the shots came from a troop of ninjas in the trees.
It doesn't make it true.

[Sir Dropham Pants]

I know this because of my years of being around mechanical engineers who do this kind of design work (including my own father, who in his *40* years of such experience believes that without some sort of controlled demolition it would have been utterly impossible for "fires" to bring not one but TWO quarter-of-a-mile high buildings down so perfectly, when it takes WEEKS of planning just to perfectly bring down an abandoned 10-story department store building).

How many of those buildings in your dad's 40 years experience had been hit by airliners full of jet fuel?

[TVMattNYC]

Not sure if they'll prove you wrong or right, but they will come at ya 'til you see things their way. ;)

It's interesting you should say that.

Because there are some reporters who have tried to track down those eyewitnesses whose accounts directly contradict the "official" story, only to find they're either not talking, or have simply disappeared.

[TVMattNYC]

But they weren't cargo planes. It was on tv and everything.

Look at the tapes yourself. Then you tell me exactly what you SEE on television, versus what people who were actually there saw.

[TVMattNYC]

How many of those buildings in your dad's 40 years experience had been hit by airliners full of jet fuel?

They didn't need to be.

Your assertion that one needs to "experience" absolutely everything before being able to make an educated judgement on anything is irrational.

[Jax]

The WTC was a notorious money-LOSER. Indeed, why would Silverstein take on a multi-billion dollar 99-year lease of a complex that had been losing money?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain anyone? Well, if it was considered an act of terrorism it would have gained Silverstein BILLIONS of dollars. Destroying the entire WTC complex, as we've all seen, gained the economic elites a mandate from the American people to use Americans' tax dollars to their profit for full-scale war in the Middle East.

:rolleyes: Yes, this is such a logical argument. The building isn't financially viable, lets set some demo charges in it, slam some planes into it and drop these bastards.

Forget about murdering 3,000 people. Forget about the insurance payouts to those murdered families. Forget about the damage done to the airline industry. Forget about the damage done to the tourism industry. Forget about the damage done to the American economy (people would argue we're still feeling the effects...) No, those buildings weren't viable and must come down.

Totally illogical...

It's interesting that you mention that "anything that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire."

Not really. Demolition residue would have still been traceable on the steel debris. But -- surprise surprise! -- within a matter of just weeks, evidence from the largest crime scene in our nation's history was allowed to be removed ... MELTED DOWN ... and refashioned into the U.S.S. New York before any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation could have begun on the steel itself.

There's plenty of steel floating around out there. There are traveling tours and pieces sitting at fire stations all over the U.S.

This argument is a canard.

And as far as your other question: "Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD (actually "FDNY"), CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?"

You apparently don't understand how a successful conspiracy works. "Let not the right hand know what the left is doing." Those in positions of power who are moving all the chess pieces don't tell everyone everything. Everyone is on a strictly "need to know" basis. Silverstein sought financial advice from the very elites who planned this despicable act, and they merely encouraged him to sign a multibillion dollar lease with a wink and a nod. Did Silverstein know what exactly was going to happen? Probably not.

The NYPD and FDNY are merely footsoldiers, doing the bidding of their superiors. They are at the bottom of the ladder, and are told to follow orders. Nothing more. They did what they were supposed to do that day, which is try to save lives.

The federal government. An ENORMOUS bureaucracy that despite what you might think, because of its myriad layers, makes pushing through an invisible agenda (or "conspiracy", if you will) easier than you think. Again ... everyone is strictly on a need to know basis. Ah, but the skeptics say ... why didn't anyone ask questions?

Indeed. Why didn't they? Why don't YOU? Anyone who works for someone else understands this phenomenon: asking too many questions, or second-guessing your boss is INSUBORDINATION. It's just not done, if you want to keep your job. How many of you, at your stations, think "why the f*** are we doing this/why the f*** did they hire her/why the f*** ...."?? But do any of you actually march into your GM's office and demand answers? I think not. You, like most everyone else in our employer-based capitalistic society, have families, mortgages, car payments, and bills, and are in no position to question authority, rock the boat, and jeopardize your livelihood. So you simply carry out orders and put crap on the air. Or start carefully turning your own tiny little cog in the terrible machine that will become 9/11.

Apparently YOU don't understand how a conspiracy works... Something on this scale requires hundreds, if not thousands, of people to pull off. You're telling me not ONE person has come forwards saying, "I put explosives in the buildings." :rolleyes:

But what about the media? "Why would CBS News 'conspire'?" Let me ask you: Why WOULDN'T it, if it has no idea that it's part of the conspiracy? Let me ask all of you: on 9/11, what did you report as "fact", and where did you get those "facts"? Think carefully. I was here in New York, working at one of the networks, putting the information on the air as soon as it became available. From my newsroom. 2 miles from Ground Zero. Without having actually "witnessed" anything. Getting only my information from the wires. Because it was my job.

Let me ask you this: Why WOULDN'T Superman come to the rescue? Clearly he was part of the conspiracy.

And there was certainly no lack of information to be had. Within minutes, all of the requisite "pieces" of the puzzle started falling into place quite perfectly. It's interesting how quickly we at the networks turned away from actual eyewitness reports (most of whom were saying that what they saw were not commercial jets, but cargo jets without windows) and started relying strictly on press releases and "official" information for our "facts".

What's funny is a woman from my town was on one of those planes. If it was a cargo plane, where is she? Was she murdered by the government in some hanger because they had this great plan to make tons of money by bringing down the buildings? (Oh wait, that cost them billions....)

Even more unbelievable is the fact that by 11:00 AM, our federal government had the entire crime figured out, right down to releasing names and PHOTOGRAPHS of the alleged hijackers! TWO HOURS! Our federal government took HOW LONG to react to Hurricane Katrina, but within two hours had figured out a complex terrorist plot, complete with names and photographs to release to the media. Indeed ... I even remember a fleeting thought to myself as I was coordinating the "graphicizing" of those photos ... "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" ... but the thought was only fleeting ... we were understandably all numb from the sheer shock of what had just happened, and were still having difficulty processing the horrible reality.

Now you're just plain lying. Head on over to the September 11 Television Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/sept_11_tv_archive). There you can watch all the news coverage from 9/11-9/13. No announcement or photos by 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. or 1 p.m...

Too bad... Making stuff up in the days of the interwebs isn't easy, is it?

[Sir Dropham Pants]

My assertion is simply that there is no precedent for a 110 story building being hit by a jetliner. I would think it's hard to predict what would happen in a situation like that because on Sept. 10, nothing like that had happened before. We've seen lots of building demolitions. There's a lot of data available about that.
It's like when my kids ask fantastic questions like, "What would happen if a tiger jumped out of the dishwasher?" I don't know what would happen. If it ever happens someday, and I live to tell, I'll have some data to report.

[TVMattNYC]

Now you're just plain lying. Head on over to the September 11 Television Archive (http://www.archive.org/details/sept_11_tv_archive). There you can watch all the news coverage from 9/11-9/13. No announcement or photos by 11 a.m. or 12 p.m. or 1 p.m...

Too bad... Making stuff up in the days of the interwebs isn't easy, is it?

Excuse me. Perhaps it was later in the afternoon. It's hard to remember. My city was under attack that day. Please forgive me.

[TVMattNYC]

My assertion is simply that there is no precedent for a 110 story building being hit by a jetliner. I would think it's hard to predict what would happen in a situation like that because on Sept. 10, nothing like that had happened before. We've seen lots of building demolitions. There's a lot of data available about that.
It's like when my kids ask fantastic questions like, "What would happen if a tiger jumped out of the dishwasher?" I don't know what would happen. If it ever happens someday, and I live to tell, I'll have some data to report.

Not true. Those towers were designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Clearly, it was considered in the planning stages back in the '60s.

[Sir Dropham Pants]

Not really. Demolition residue would have still been traceable on the steel debris. But -- surprise surprise! -- within a matter of just weeks, evidence from the largest crime scene in our nation's history was allowed to be removed ... MELTED DOWN ... and refashioned into the U.S.S. New York before any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation could have begun on the steel itself.


I found a piece that wasn't melted down. It's been "secretly" held in a public park for at least five years. Let's hope no one finds it and exposes the truth.
http://www.sjcparks.org/images/9-11%20memorial2.jpg

[TVMattNYC]

What's funny is a woman from my town was on one of those planes.

And you know this for a fact ... how? How do you know HER plane isn't at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean?

[TVMattNYC]

There's plenty of steel floating around out there. There are traveling tours and pieces sitting at fire stations all over the U.S.



Plenty of pieces of steel that were released from a crime scene after being tested by the FBI.

Your point?

[Sir Dropham Pants]

Not true. Those towers were designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Clearly, it was considered in the planning stages back in the '60s.

Yes, but it never actually happened before 9-11.

[Jax]

Excuse me. Perhaps it was later in the afternoon. It's hard to remember. My city was under attack that day. Please forgive me.

So this whole quote is false?

I even remember a fleeting thought to myself as I was coordinating the "graphicizing" of those photos ... "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" ... but the thought was only fleeting ...

So that never happened then right? I mean, if the pictures didn't come out in two hours, it would be impossible for you to have that thought? Thus, you were just making that up right?

[Jax]

Plenty of pieces of steel that were released from a crime scene after being tested by the FBI.

Your point?

Test....
The...
Steel...
For...
Explosive...
Residue...

Making your "THEY MELTED DOWN THE STEEL@!@! OH NOOZ!!!" argument, moot...

[TVMattNYC]

Apparently YOU don't understand how a conspiracy works... Something on this scale requires hundreds, if not thousands, of people to pull off. You're telling me not ONE person has come forwards saying, "I put explosives in the buildings."

Actually, I understand perfectly. Something on this scale requires only that the conspirators be at the very top of the pyramid. Just a few well-placed orders from on high are all that are required to get the rest of the pyramid to fall in line, without even knowing what they're doing.

[TVMattNYC]

Test....
The...
Steel...
For...
Explosive...
Residue...

Making your "THEY MELTED DOWN THE STEEL@!@! OH NOOZ!!!" argument, moot...

Not at all.

Before releasing the steel to the public, the FBI tested it to make sure it DIDN'T have explosive residue, not to make sure that it DID.

[wx or not]

And you know this for a fact ... how? How do you know HER plane isn't at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean?
Strawman, matt, strawman.

[Jax]

And you know this for a fact ... how? How do you know HER plane isn't at the bottom of the Atlantic ocean?

You love to play the logical disconnect game, don't you? How do I know her plane isn't invisible and sitting on top of my house?

My brains say, "There was no plane crashed into the Atlantic that day. No debris washing up on shore. No reports of missing planes by United..."

Just adding more people to your conspiracy... Under your logic, the superior must have told the pilot, "You don't need to know!!! I'll have you suspended!!! Now go crash that plane into the Atlantic!!!"

"Yes, sir."

[TVMattNYC]

You're telling me not ONE person has come forwards saying, "I put explosives in the buildings."

Yes I am. What makes you think the people who placed the explosives would have been in on the conspiracy? Do you have any idea how stupid day-laborers are these days (particularly the illegal -- er, excuse me -- UNDOCUMENTED "immigrants")? For all we know they could have been told they were installing "monitoring equipment".

[Jax]

Actually, I understand perfectly. Something on this scale requires only that the conspirators be at the very top of the pyramid. Just a few well-placed orders from on high are all that are required to get the rest of the pyramid to fall in line, without even knowing what they're doing.

And the people carrying out those well placed orders would say, "Hmmm... I put dynamite in that building three days ago... I'm going to call Larry King!"

No, I'm sure the CIA ninjas had them disappeared...

[TVMattNYC]

My brains say, "There was no plane crashed into the Atlantic that day. No debris washing up on shore. No reports of missing planes by United..."


That's right. Because United said their plane crashed into the World Trade Center.

[TVMattNYC]

And the people carrying out those well placed orders would say, "Hmmm... I put dynamite in that building three days ago... I'm going to call Larry King!"

No, I'm sure the CIA ninjas had them disappeared...

Read my last post.

The people who installed the explosives were likely non-English speaking day laborers who didn't even know what the hell they were installing.

[Sir Dropham Pants]

Yes I am. What makes you think the people who placed the explosives would have been in on the conspiracy? Do you have any idea how stupid day-laborers are these days (particularly the illegal -- er, excuse me -- UNDOCUMENTED "immigrants")? For all we know they could have been told they were installing "monitoring equipment".

Yes, unicorns could have done it also. In fact, they may have also crashed the planes into the sea.
http://www.coolest-wallpapers.com/fantasy/wallpapers/unicorn-wallpapers.jpg
This is them coming back from that assignment.

[Jax]

Yes I am. What makes you think the people who placed the explosives would have been in on the conspiracy? Do you have any idea how stupid day-laborers are these days (particularly the illegal -- er, excuse me -- UNDOCUMENTED "immigrants")? For all we know they could have been told they were installing "monitoring equipment".

:worship:

I was wondering whether this thread was legit after you defended the existence of Unicorns, now I know it's not...

You're saying it's possible DAY LABORERS were able to properly set the explosives needed to bring down the WTC? No, you're right Matt... Building demo on that scale requires no skill whatsoever...

[TVMattNYC]

So this whole quote is false?



So that never happened then right? I mean, if the pictures didn't come out in two hours, it would be impossible for you to have that thought? Thus, you were just making that up right?

Two hours, five hours. Dude the point is still the same. They had the whole crime figured out in less than a day. HOW????

[TVMattNYC]

:worship:

I was wondering whether this thread was legit after you defended the existence of Unicorns, now I know it's not...

You're saying it's possible DAY LABORERS were able to properly set the explosives needed to bring down the WTC? No, you're right Matt... Building demo on that scale requires no skill whatsoever...

You'd be surprised. As long as you have accurate blueprints, the guys at the bottom don't need to know any more than "Put tab A into slot B".

[Tripe Face]

The WTC was a notorious money-LOSER. Indeed, why would Silverstein take on a multi-billion dollar 99-year lease of a complex that had been losing money?

What the hell does destroying WTC 7 gain anyone? Well, if it was considered an act of terrorism it would have gained Silverstein BILLIONS of dollars. Destroying the entire WTC complex, as we've all seen, gained the economic elites a mandate from the American people to use Americans' tax dollars to their profit for full-scale war in the Middle East.

It's interesting that you mention that "anything that might embarrass anyone could easily have been destroyed by the fire."

Not really. Demolition residue would have still been traceable on the steel debris. But -- surprise surprise! -- within a matter of just weeks, evidence from the largest crime scene in our nation's history was allowed to be removed ... MELTED DOWN ... and refashioned into the U.S.S. New York before any kind of INDEPENDENT investigation could have begun on the steel itself.

And as far as your other question: "Why would the owners of WTC 7, The NYPD, NYFD (actually "FDNY"), CBS News, The Federal Government and countless others "conspire" to destroy an already badly damaged building?"

You apparently don't understand how a successful conspiracy works. "Let not the right hand know what the left is doing." Those in positions of power who are moving all the chess pieces don't tell everyone everything. Everyone is on a strictly "need to know" basis. Silverstein sought financial advice from the very elites who planned this despicable act, and they merely encouraged him to sign a multibillion dollar lease with a wink and a nod. Did Silverstein know what exactly was going to happen? Probably not.

The NYPD and FDNY are merely footsoldiers, doing the bidding of their superiors. They are at the bottom of the ladder, and are told to follow orders. Nothing more. They did what they were supposed to do that day, which is try to save lives.

The federal government. An ENORMOUS bureaucracy that despite what you might think, because of its myriad layers, makes pushing through an invisible agenda (or "conspiracy", if you will) easier than you think. Again ... everyone is strictly on a need to know basis. Ah, but the skeptics say ... why didn't anyone ask questions?

Indeed. Why didn't they? Why don't YOU? Anyone who works for someone else understands this phenomenon: asking too many questions, or second-guessing your boss is INSUBORDINATION. It's just not done, if you want to keep your job. How many of you, at your stations, think "why the f*** are we doing this/why the f*** did they hire her/why the f*** ...."?? But do any of you actually march into your GM's office and demand answers? I think not. You, like most everyone else in our employer-based capitalistic society, have families, mortgages, car payments, and bills, and are in no position to question authority, rock the boat, and jeopardize your livelihood. So you simply carry out orders and put crap on the air. Or start carefully turning your own tiny little cog in the terrible machine that will become 9/11.

But what about the media? "Why would CBS News 'conspire'?" Let me ask you: Why WOULDN'T it, if it has no idea that it's part of the conspiracy? Let me ask all of you: on 9/11, what did you report as "fact", and where did you get those "facts"? Think carefully. I was here in New York, working at one of the networks, putting the information on the air as soon as it became available. From my newsroom. 2 miles from Ground Zero. Without having actually "witnessed" anything. Getting only my information from the wires. Because it was my job.

And there was certainly no lack of information to be had. Within minutes, all of the requisite "pieces" of the puzzle started falling into place quite perfectly. It's interesting how quickly we at the networks turned away from actual eyewitness reports (most of whom were saying that what they saw were not commercial jets, but cargo jets without windows) and started relying strictly on press releases and "official" information for our "facts".

Even more unbelievable is the fact that by 11:00 AM, our federal government had the entire crime figured out, right down to releasing names and PHOTOGRAPHS of the alleged hijackers! TWO HOURS! Our federal government took HOW LONG to react to Hurricane Katrina, but within two hours had figured out a complex terrorist plot, complete with names and photographs to release to the media. Indeed ... I even remember a fleeting thought to myself as I was coordinating the "graphicizing" of those photos ... "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" ... but the thought was only fleeting ... we were understandably all numb from the sheer shock of what had just happened, and were still having difficulty processing the horrible reality.

I'm not saying that any of this is true. But what I'm saying is that I, as a journalist, refuse to stop asking questions until someone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping the conspiracy intact can prove me wrong.

So your theory is that a greedy landlord killed 3,000 plus people to cut his losses? In a country where business losses ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

I swear Matt... get yourself to a professional mental health expert, you've gone round the bend.

[TVMattNYC]

So your theory is that a greedy landlord killed 3,000 plus people to cut his losses? In a country where business losses ARE TAX DEDUCTIBLE.

I swear Matt... get yourself to a professional mental health expert, you've gone round the bend.

Apparently you don't understand how tax deductions work.

Even if you can write off losses ... you're still LOSING money. Unless the building is destroyed. Then you GAIN money.

See how it works?

[TVMattNYC]

"If I had to choose between government without newspapers, and newspapers without
government, I wouldn't hesitate to choose the latter."

--Thomas Jefferson

Ironic that you should choose that quote as your signature, Tripe, since you seem to disdain any journalists who question authority.

[Tripe Face]

That's right. Because United said their plane crashed into the World Trade Center.

No not because UNITED said so (why would they destory a multi-billion dollar plane to help cover up for a greedy landlord losing money on the WTC?)

Because we SAW it hit the building. And we SAW the other plane hit the WTC. The first was caught on camera by a french tv crew shooting a story that morning and the camera man tilt up and video tape the crash. The second caught by about 200 tv cameras pointed at the buildings... never once have I ever heard ANYONE claim that those where anything other than commercial jetliners. Cargo planes with no windows??? What the *****??? where do you dream this stuff up?

[Clever Login Name]

Not sure if they'll prove you wrong or right, but they will come at ya 'til you see things their way. ;)

Quite true. Those Troofers are very persistent.

And clearly, Matt is the expert on this. I mean, after all, he DOES have the Twin Towers as his avatar.

[The Mockingbird]

Nice try, Hitler.

I've got first-hand witnesses who were on I-395 and facing the Pentagon when it got hit.

It was very obviously a passenger jet.

Occam's razor, therefore, says any theory that says passenger jets weren't used, and missiles or cargo jets were, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on (in crayon).

[TVMattNYC]

No not because UNITED said so (why would they destory a multi-billion dollar plane to help cover up for a greedy landlord losing money on the WTC?)

Because we SAW it hit the building. And we SAW the other plane hit the WTC. The first was caught on camera by a french tv crew shooting a story that morning and the camera man tilt up and video tape the crash. The second caught by about 200 tv cameras pointed at the buildings... never once have I ever heard ANYONE claim that those where anything other than commercial jetliners. Cargo planes with no windows??? What the *****??? where do you dream this stuff up?

I'm not talking about the first plane. I'm talking about the second plane.

And on absolutely no television coverage can you tell whether the plane was a commercial airliner or a cargo jet. You were TOLD what you were seeing.

Go ahead. Take another look at the tapes.

[wx or not]

People. You got this all wrong. Matt is just trying to make the 5,000 post count faster.:whistle:

[Clever Login Name]

A few fun facts from the 2005 Popular Mechanics article, that debunked the 9-11 conspiracies ... there's more where this came from, but this addresses most of Matt's claims:

Claim: The first hijacked plane crashed through the 94th to the 98th floors of the World Trade Center's 110-story North Tower; the second jet slammed into the 78th to the 84th floors of the 110-story South Tower. The impact and ensuing fires disrupted elevator service in both buildings. Plus, the lobbies of both buildings were visibly damaged before the towers collapsed. "There is NO WAY the impact of the jet caused such widespread damage 80 stories below," claims a posting on the San Diego Independent Media Center Web site (sandiego.indymedia.org). "It is OBVIOUS and irrefutable that OTHER EXPLOSIVES (... such as concussion bombs) HAD ALREADY BEEN DETONATED in the lower levels of tower one at the same time as the plane crash."
FACT: Following up on a May 2002 preliminary report by the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA), a major study will be released in spring 2005 by the National Institute of Standards and Technology (NIST), a branch of the U.S. Department of Commerce. NIST shared its initial findings with PM and made its lead researcher available to our team of reporters.

The NIST investigation revealed that plane debris sliced through the utility shafts at the North Tower's core, creating a conduit for burning jet fuel — and fiery destruction throughout the building. "It's very hard to document where the fuel went," says Forman Williams, a NIST adviser and a combustion expert, "but if it's atomized and combustible and gets to an ignition source, it'll go off."

Burning fuel traveling down the elevator shafts would have disrupted the elevator systems and caused extensive damage to the lobbies. NIST heard first-person testimony that "some elevators slammed right down" to the ground floor. "The doors cracked open on the lobby floor and flames came out and people died," says James Quintiere, an engineering professor at the University of Maryland and a NIST adviser. A similar observation was made in the French documentary "9/11," by Jules and Gedeon Naudet. As Jules Naudet entered the North Tower lobby, minutes after the first aircraft struck, he saw victims on fire, a scene he found too horrific to film.


"Melted" Steel
Claim: "We have been lied to," announces the Web site AttackOnAmerica.net. "The first lie was that the load of fuel from the aircraft was the cause of structural failure. No kerosene fire can burn hot enough to melt steel." The posting is entitled "Proof Of Controlled Demolition At The WTC."
FACT: Jet fuel burns at 800° to 1500°F, not hot enough to melt steel (2750°F). However, experts agree that for the towers to collapse, their steel frames didn't need to melt, they just had to lose some of their structural strength — and that required exposure to much less heat. "I have never seen melted steel in a building fire," says retired New York deputy fire chief Vincent Dunn, author of The Collapse Of Burning Buildings: A Guide To Fireground Safety. "But I've seen a lot of twisted, warped, bent and sagging steel. What happens is that the steel tries to expand at both ends, but when it can no longer expand, it sags and the surrounding concrete cracks."

"Steel loses about 50 percent of its strength at 1100°F," notes senior engineer Farid Alfawak-hiri of the American Institute of Steel Construction. "And at 1800° it is probably at less than 10 percent." NIST also believes that a great deal of the spray-on fireproofing insulation was likely knocked off the steel beams that were in the path of the crashing jets, leaving the metal more vulnerable to the heat.

But jet fuel wasn't the only thing burning, notes Forman Williams, a professor of engineering at the University of California, San Diego, and one of seven structural engineers and fire experts that PM consulted. He says that while the jet fuel was the catalyst for the WTC fires, the resulting inferno was intensified by the combustible material inside the buildings, including rugs, curtains, furniture and paper. NIST reports that pockets of fire hit 1832°F.

"The jet fuel was the ignition source," Williams tells PM. "It burned for maybe 10 minutes, and [the towers] were still standing in 10 minutes. It was the rest of the stuff burning afterward that was responsible for the heat transfer that eventually brought them down."


Puffs Of Dust
Claim: As each tower collapsed, clearly visible puffs of dust and debris were ejected from the sides of the buildings. An advertisement in The New York Times for the book Painful Questions: An Analysis Of The September 11th Attack made this claim: "The concrete clouds shooting out of the buildings are not possible from a mere collapse. They do occur from explosions." Numerous conspiracy theorists cite Van Romero, an explosives expert and vice president of the New Mexico Institute of Mining and Technology, who was quoted on 9/11 by the Albuquerque Journal as saying "there were some explosive devices inside the buildings that caused the towers to collapse." The article continues, "Romero said the collapse of the structures resembled those of controlled implosions used to demolish old structures."
FACT: Once each tower began to collapse, the weight of all the floors above the collapsed zone bore down with pulverizing force on the highest intact floor. Unable to absorb the massive energy, that floor would fail, transmitting the forces to the floor below, allowing the collapse to progress downward through the building in a chain reaction. Engineers call the process "pancaking," and it does not require an explosion to begin, according to David Biggs, a structural engineer at Ryan-Biggs Associates and a member of the American Society of Civil Engineers (ASCE) team that worked on the FEMA report.

Like all office buildings, the WTC towers contained a huge volume of air. As they pancaked, all that air — along with the concrete and other debris pulverized by the force of the collapse — was ejected with enormous energy. "When you have a significant portion of a floor collapsing, it's going to shoot air and concrete dust out the window," NIST lead investigator Shyam Sunder tells PM. Those clouds of dust may create the impression of a controlled demolition, Sunder adds, "but it is the floor pancaking that leads to that perception."

Demolition expert Romero regrets that his comments to the Albuquerque Journal became fodder for conspiracy theorists. "I was misquoted in saying that I thought it was explosives that brought down the building," he tells PM. "I only said that that's what it looked like."

Romero, who agrees with the scientific conclusion that fire triggered the collapses, demanded a retraction from the Journal. It was printed Sept. 22, 2001. "I felt like my scientific reputation was on the line." But emperors-clothes.com saw something else: "The paymaster of Romero's research institute is the Pentagon. Directly or indirectly, pressure was brought to bear, forcing Romero to retract his original statement." Romero responds: "Conspiracy theorists came out saying that the government got to me. That is the farthest thing from the truth. This has been an albatross around my neck for three years."

[Tripe Face]

Ironic that you should choose that quote as your signature, Tripe, since you seem to disdain any journalists who question authority.

It's NOT ironic... I don't believe that OBL and AQ were soley responsible for 9-11 because some AUTHORITY said so... I believe it because every EVERY RESPECTIBLE INDEPENDENT AMERICAN JOURNALISTIC ORGANIZATION SAYS THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED! Continuing to chase strawmen is not journalism, it's self-delusion.

Why don't you understand, WE ALL WITNESSED IT... it was on TV.
The pentagon crash was witnessed by hundreds of people...including at least one national journalist... he saw an American Airlines jet hit the building, and some people still believe it was a missile.

There is tape of Osama Bin Laden sitting on the floor of a home BRAGGING about how he planned it and he KNEW the planes would bring down the WTC. I know the person who transcribed his comments from Arabic to English for our story the day that tape was made public... She wasn't lying.

Maybe because you live in New York, your city was permanently marred by the attacks... maybe you lost a loved one or friends that day (I hope that's not the case) and can't come to terms with it so you grasp at straws and conspiracies.

Fact: Arab Terrorists hijacked four American jetliners, crashed three into buildings and the fourth into a field. Killing some 4,000 people. They did it because they hate non-muslims, especially Americans.

Fact: It wasn't a conspiracy of the US Government, a greedy landlord, the Jews, and/or spanish speaking day laborers who are capable of renovating high-rise but too stupid to understand the difference between spackle and dynamite.

Fact: It was an incredibly complex set of events, and no matter how much we examine it, some questions will never be fully answered to satisfy everyone. So be it.

[TVMattNYC]

Nice try, Hitler.

I've got first-hand witnesses who were on I-395 and facing the Pentagon when it got hit.

It was very obviously a passenger jet.

Occam's razor, therefore, says any theory that says passenger jets weren't used, and missiles or cargo jets were, isn't worth the toilet paper it's written on (in crayon).

And I've got first-hand witnesses who say it wasn't.

Point?

[TVMattNYC]

A few fun facts from the 2005 Popular Mechanics article, that debunked the 9-11 conspiracies

Oh. Popular Mechanics. The magazine owned by ultra-conservative interests who have financially benefitted from the Iraq war.

Well if THEY "debunked" those conspiracy nuts, then it must be so!

Check THIS out:

http://canadawantsthetruth911videos.blogspot.com/2007/12/popular-mechanics-debunked.html

[TVMattNYC]

It's NOT ironic... I don't believe that OBL and AQ were soley responsible for 9-11 because some AUTHORITY said so... I believe it because every EVERY RESPECTIBLE INDEPENDENT AMERICAN JOURNALISTIC ORGANIZATION SAYS THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED!

Every "respectable independent American journalistic organization" -- including my own -- says that's what happened ... only because that's what the "officials" have TOLD them that's what happened.

[Tripe Face]

I'm not talking about the first plane. I'm talking about the second plane.

And on absolutely no television coverage can you tell whether the plane was a commercial airliner or a cargo jet. You were TOLD what you were seeing.

Go ahead. Take another look at the tapes.

It took me about :45 on Google to find this photo

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3694/2087yx0.jpg


if you want to believe that's not a United Airlines Jet, than you can also believe that Chinese Gymnist is 16 years old.

[wx or not]

Matt, don't slow up now. You've only got 123 more to go....:whistle:

[Clever Login Name]

Ooooh, another Troofer website.

The one unassailable fact remains that people like you are more willing to assign blame to and believe that Americans, including the U.S. President, are so evil that they committed mass murder of other Americans in order to further their political and financial goals ... and that THAT is a more likely theory than that this was orchestrated by terrorists who have attacked the U-S (and the WTC) before, have vowed to kill as many innocent Americans as possible and have proudly admitted that they planned and carried out this attack.

[Tripe Face]

Every "respectable independent American journalistic organization" -- including my own -- says that's what happened ... only because that's what the "officials" have TOLD them that's what happened.

No Journalistic organization I've ever worked for EVER reports ONLY what "OFFICIALS" have told them. They keep digging, the ask everyone they can. And that's just what the New Media did on 9/11/2001 and 9/12/2001 and every day since.

This thread was started because the questions being asked BY THE MEDIA about WTC 7 forced an investigation into the cause of it's collapse. Now the media is looking at that investigation and asking MORE questions.

But of course, you won't believe it because you are living in your own little world.

[TVMattNYC]

It took me about :45 on Google to find this photo

http://img157.imageshack.us/img157/3694/2087yx0.jpg


if you want to believe that's not a United Airlines Jet, than you can also believe that Chinese Gymnist is 16 years old.

Wow. I guess I'm mistaken.

After all, there are NO doctored photos on Google!

[TVMattNYC]

No Journalistic organization I've ever worked for EVER reports ONLY what "OFFICIALS" have told them. They keep digging, the ask everyone they can. And that's just what the New Media did on 9/11/2001 and 9/12/2001 and every day since.

This thread was started because the questions being asked BY THE MEDIA about WTC 7 forced an investigation into the cause of it's collapse. Now the media is looking at that investigation and asking MORE questions.

But of course, you won't believe it because you are living in your own little world.

Forced an investigation by the people being investigated.

Yeah. Great "investigation".

[wx or not]

...122...

[TVMattNYC]

And it took ME just 3 seconds to find THIS photo ... on Google!

http://www.jeffooi.com/Web1_touristguy.jpg

[wx or not]

...120...

[MyracleMan]

Not true. Those towers were designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Clearly, it was considered in the planning stages back in the '60s.

The largest commercial jet in use at the time was the Boeing 707. In designing the World Trade Center, structural engineers considered the scenario of a fully loaded Boeing 707 impacting the 80th floor of the buildings at 600 mph (1,000 km/h). (Robertson, Leslie E. (2002). "Reflections on the World Trade Center". The Bridge Volume 32, Number 1. National Academy of Engineering; Nalder, Eric (1993-02-27). "Twin Towers Engineered to Withstand Jet Collision", The Seattle Times.)

The planes that hit the WTC were 767's; Flight 175 was at 1/3 weight capacity, and Flight 11 was at 51% weight capacity. A 767 is 20% larger than a 707, and can carry 1000 gallons more jet fuel when fully loaded. This equals a larger, faster, more combustible projectile.

The structural integrity of the two towers was comprimised by the initial impact of the planes. The full loads of jet fuel that poured into the towers started the fires; the office supplies, wooden desks and chairs, and building materials gave more fuel to the fires. Some of those fires burned as hot as 1832 degrees Faernheit. This is not hot enough to melt steel. But it is hot enough to cause the steel to weaken. With structural integrity compromised because of the impact, and further compromised because of the heat of the flames, it's perfectly plausible that two planes impacting the trade centers caused the buildings to collapse. Hundreds of structural and civil engineers have said so.

As for the puffs of smoke... the huge volume of air on each floor that would be pushed down the stairwells, elevator shafts, and out the windows by each floor pancaking down on the next, would be tremendous. That air and concrete dust and debris has to go somewhere. Some of it came out 10 floors down, some 30 floors down, some 50 floors down.

All of this has been extensively covered in analysis after analysis... give up the ghost, Matt. Admit that there are some people out there who want to see our entire financial infrastructure destroyed, and want to see all of us live in the Third World again.

[amabala]

No not because UNITED said so (why would they destory a multi-billion dollar plane to help cover up for a greedy landlord losing money on the WTC?)

Because we SAW it hit the building. And we SAW the other plane hit the WTC. The first was caught on camera by a french tv crew shooting a story that morning and the camera man tilt up and video tape the crash. The second caught by about 200 tv cameras pointed at the buildings... never once have I ever heard ANYONE claim that those where anything other than commercial jetliners. Cargo planes with no windows??? What the *****??? where do you dream this stuff up?

A fox reporter saw a plane hit the tower that morning and said the plane didn't have any windows, and it was like no jetliner he had seen before.
That was live, look it up if it's still available

[Jax]

Two hours, five hours. Dude the point is still the same. They had the whole crime figured out in less than a day. HOW????

It wasn't a day, or two days, or three days... IT WAS 16 DAYS!!!

LINK (http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm)

LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/09/27/hijackers-photos.htm#more)

So really, you never had that thought. You never thought "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" This was simply a lie in an attempt to prop yourself up and make it seem like YOU know more the EVERYONE ELSE.

Unfortunantly you were caught and that too was fleeting...

[TVMattNYC]

It wasn't a day, or two days, or three days... IT WAS 16 DAYS!!!

LINK (http://www.fbi.gov/pressrel/pressrel01/092701hjpic.htm)

LINK (http://www.usatoday.com/news/sept11/2001/09/27/hijackers-photos.htm#more)

So really, you never had that thought. You never thought "How the HELL did they find these pictures so quickly??" This was simply a lie in an attempt to prop yourself up and make it seem like YOU know more the EVERYONE ELSE.

Unfortunantly you were caught and that too was fleeting...

This is just plain WRONG.

And your using the FBI's own website to bolster your argument proves nothing.

[TVMattNYC]

Admit that there are some people out there who want to see our entire financial infrastructure destroyed, and want to see all of us live in the Third World again.

Of course there are.

Just as there are those WITHIN our own financial infrastructure who profit enormously from us going war with Iraq.

[Spike]

The federal government. An ENORMOUS bureaucracy that despite what you might think, because of its myriad layers, makes pushing through an invisible agenda (or "conspiracy", if you will) easier than you think. Again ... everyone is strictly on a need to know basis.

What renders your entire theory unbelievable is the amount of faith you have in your government. Not only is the government generally incompetent, but it leaks information like a seive. It's just not probable that the US government could execute a plan like this AND keep it secret.

You give them too much credit.

If that were the case, those puffs would be coming out of the floors immediately below the fire. Not 20, 30, 50 stories down.

Actually, the building is not a stack of individual air systems, but one big system with columns of open space running from top to bottom. If the upper floors collapse, air will be forced downward through the many shafts that run the height of the building and blow out windows below. I know they're there in most buildings, because I have dropped cable through them to get a signal from the ground to a microwave transmitter on the roof.

I know this because of my years of being around mechanical engineers who do this kind of design work (including my own father, who in his *40* years of such experience believes that without some sort of controlled demolition it would have been utterly impossible for "fires" to bring not one but TWO quarter-of-a-mile high buildings down so perfectly, when it takes WEEKS of planning just to perfectly bring down an abandoned 10-story department store building).

It might take weeks to plan a controlled implosion of a building. It takes little time to bring down a building if you have no concern for the safety of life and property around the building being demolished.

Not true. Those towers were designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Clearly, it was considered in the planning stages back in the '60s.

The towers were designed to withstand an impact. The towers were NOT designed to withstand continuous 2300 degree heat applied for several hours. The steel in the WTC was coated with heat-resistant material, but it was only designed to withstand a normal structure fire that could be put out through the building's suppression system. It was not designed to withstand hours of burning jet fuel.

Really, your theories all fall apart on even the most cursory inspection. No wonder you're afraid to leave NY, when you've created such an irrational fantasy land for yourself to live in.

[Produce man]

Matt, you're not really this nutty, are you? Are you telling me that the live feed I saw on the Today Show (at the time) was faked?

That tens of thousand of people were in on the conspiracy, and not ONE person has come foward?

Really? Bush has that kind of power?

Dude, you really need to get "laid".

[Jax]

Really, your theories all fall apart on even the most cursory inspection. No wonder you're afraid to leave NY, when you've created such an irrational fantasy land for yourself to live in.

You mean the day laborers theory might be fiction?

[TVMattNYC]

No wonder you're afraid to leave NY, when you've created such an irrational fantasy land for yourself to live in.

I don't think I like you anymore, Boo. :(

[Another OMB]

And the plane(s) full of people who disappeared? The ones Matt says did NOT hit the towers? One of those planes was on "Lost". I saw it. It was put at the bottom of the ocean to make it look like the Oceanic flight had crashed in the ocean and there were no survivors.

[kmfdmatt]

Is it coming down to credibility of eye witnesses? Okay, my communist-loving, Bush-hating, possibly-anarchist father saw the jet hit the Pentagon. In other words, the last person who trusts the government, the last person who wanted to support the President and the war, and the last person who would want to back up patriotic tendencies saw the jet hit the Pentagon.

[Tripe Face]

Give it up... by definition, Matt and his fellow tinfoil hatters will go to their graves not believing the story of 9-11. Just as some folks don't believe we landed on the moon, or that Paul isn't dead or that Chinese Gymnast isn't 16.

[Sir Dropham Pants]

I'd like to stop, but I can't. This is becoming one of my favorite threads ever here. Getting someone to leave the door open on the existence of unicorns in a serious discussion doesn't happen every day.
That, coupled with these guys:
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/04/14/laborer.jpg
wiring the WTC with explosives is too good to stop.
Imagine what could come next...

[Roy Hobbs]

Give it up... by definition, Matt and his fellow tinfoil hatters will go to their graves not believing the story of 9-11. Just as some folks don't believe we landed on the moon, or that Paul isn't dead or that Chinese Gymnast isn't 16.

...or Dyckerson's claim that the girl in his last "production" was 18.

[Produce man]

...or Dyckerson's claim that the girl in his last "production" was 18.18 years old? That's one old inflatable doll!

[Mighty Dyckerson]

18 years old? That's one old inflatable doll!

Almost as old as your lame jokes.

:moon::moon::moon::moon:

[Jax]

I'd like to stop, but I can't. This is becoming one of my favorite threads ever here. Getting someone to leave the door open on the existence of unicorns in a serious discussion doesn't happen every day.
That, coupled with these guys:

wiring the WTC with explosives is too good to stop.
Imagine what could come next...

Indeed. Throw in a little Produce Vs. Dyck and you've got the BEST THREAD OF THE WEEK!!!

[Spike]

Getting someone to leave the door open on the existence of unicorns in a serious discussion doesn't happen every day.


Maybe Matt is a loyal follower:

http://x8f.xanga.com/586c1bf476230161353167/w121473280.jpg

[Ralphie the buffalo]

Lay out a brief outline of what you think happened Matt.
I'm interested to read what you, a resident New Yorker, have to say.

On page 2 of this thread I posted this question.
Thank you for responding in more detail than I expected, Matt.
I geniunely wanted to see the thought process and how the conclusion was made.
I don't agree with most of the theory, but I can see where Matt is coming from now.

Matt, there is a pattern of attacks on large American buildings by Middle-Eastern terrorists.
The WTC bombing in 1993.
The OKC Murrah Building in 1996.
No, it wasn't just McVeigh and Nichols (there's your conspiracy/coverup) http://www.jaynadavis.com/highlights.html
There were many other attacks on American targets overseas.
The 9/11 attack fits this pattern.

[FD2BLK]

18 years old? That's one old inflatable doll!

And you would know wouldn't you.

[Jax]

The OKC Murrah Building in 1996.
No, it wasn't just McVeigh and Nichols (there's your conspiracy/coverup) http://www.jaynadavis.com/highlights.html

:frustrated:

[Kace]

1995...

[Produce man]

And you would know wouldn't you.What are you talking about? I've never met you.

[Kace]

That may be 'cause you were havin' to work late. ;)

[Produce man]

That may be 'cause you were havin' to work late. ;)Or perhaps because I don't recall meeting any inflatable dolls.

[Kace]

Would you want to?

[s'news]

Maybe it involves an insurance claim.

[newz2me]

Not true. Those towers were designed to withstand a direct hit by an airliner. Clearly, it was considered in the planning stages back in the '60s.
It was designed to be hit by a Boeing 707 (the largest jet at that time) and the designers assumed that the plane would hit on approach to the airports traveling slowly and low on fuel not a full fueled 757 or 767 traveling at over 500 MPH.
The terrorists wanted the towers to topple over and rain debris all over Lower Manhattan. It was only because of their great design that they withstood the impact and allowed the majority of the people to escape. Most of those who died were above the impact zone.

[newz2me]

Yes I am. What makes you think the people who placed the explosives would have been in on the conspiracy? Do you have any idea how stupid day-laborers are these days (particularly the illegal -- er, excuse me -- UNDOCUMENTED "immigrants")? For all we know they could have been told they were installing "monitoring equipment".

First off explosives are installed by experts who know exactly where to place the charges and how much explosives to use. No lay person could do that with such accuracy.
Second explosives alone cannot topple a building. In addition to explosives demo crews cut into key structural supports to enable the building to fall in its footprint.(But you know that already);) . It takes weeks to install enough wiring and explosives to do a job on a normal scale let alone two 110 story towers and WTC 7. Yet no one coming or going for weeks recalls seeing anything?
Thirdly even with the assumption that these "immigrants" didn't know what they were doing. If the building comes down just weeks after you were doing extensive work on it, a little bell might go off. They may be "immigrants" but they're not necessarily stupid and they do have explosives in other parts of the world. They even have little universal symbols on them so you know what you're dealing with.
You can create conspiacy theories on why anything happens in the world. Why is there a half ounce less cornflakes in the box these days? Maybe the costs of gas is increasing because the government is skimming the money off for clandestine purposes. Why did the Red Sox win the World Series? Where are all my missing socks? The list is endless and in every instance you could have a point/counterpoint until you turn blue. So why waste the time debating with someone who has their mind made up. It's like running up a sand dune.
I know what I saw with my own eyes and I'm still here. The real disturbing point is that there are close to 3,000 people who died that day and playing the events of that day up as some sort of wacky real estate scam is disrespectful to their memory.

[Tripe Face]

First off explosives are installed by experts who know exactly where to place the charges and how much explosives to use. No lay person could do that with such accuracy.
Second explosives alone cannot topple a building. In addition to explosives demo crews cut into key structural supports to enable the building to fall in its footprint.(But you know that already);) . It takes weeks to install enough wiring and explosives to do a job on a normal scale let alone two 110 story towers and WTC 7. Yet no one coming or going for weeks recalls seeing anything?
Thirdly even with the assumption that these "immigrants" didn't know what they were doing. If the building comes down just weeks after you were doing extensive work on it, a little bell might go off. They may be "immigrants" but they're not necessarily stupid and they do have explosives in other parts of the world. They even have little universal symbols on them so you know what you're dealing with.
You can create conspiacy theories on why anything happens in the world. Why is there a half ounce less cornflakes in the box these days? Maybe the costs of gas is increasing because the government is skimming the money off for clandestine purposes. Why did the Red Sox win the World Series? Where are all my missing socks? The list is endless and in every instance you could have a point/counterpoint until you turn blue. So why waste the time debating with someone who has their mind made up. It's like running up a sand dune.
I know what I saw with my own eyes and I'm still here. The real disturbing point is that there are close to 3,000 people who died that day and playing the events of that day up as some sort of wacky real estate scam is disrespectful to their memory.

Very well written Newz2. It's a shame that it will fall on the closed mind of TVMatt.

Oh, and I think I have your socks... why else would I have 47 unmatched socks? (By the way the orange and purple argyle sock is REALLY ugly)

[newz2me]

Well thank God I'm not going crazy. I'll send you a postage paid box for the socks. You can ditch the purple argyle though.:thumbsup:

[Spike]

Where are all my missing socks?

The rotation of the dryer spins them into another dimension. You can go there too if you ride the dryer.

[Roy Hobbs]

I think the brown and orange argyle socks with the ribbed stripes are John Lee Hooker's.

[TVMattNYC]

First off explosives are installed by experts who know exactly where to place the charges and how much explosives to use. No lay person could do that with such accuracy.


You're probably right: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc6.htm

[Jax]

You're probably right: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc6.htm

About serendipity.li:

This Serendipity website is based on a libertarian (in the sense of J.S.Mill) perspective and is opposed to Fascism, Zionism, Capitalism, the New World Order and all who secretly work to cause wars for their own advantage and profit...

Also this site may help to inform those people who previously preferred to "look the other way" and not see what is going on around them and in other societies and — not seeing — saying and doing nothing, thereby helping evil to flourish and harming themselves and everyone else on this planet. When someone next offers you disinfo, lies and deceit Just Say 'Know'.

Sounds like you're "still having difficulty processing the horrible reality."

[Another side]

Well, since this thread has references to unicorns, trapezoids longing to be triangles, corn flakes, argyle socks and inflatable dolls, I don't think it's possible to go "off-topic" so I'll add a thought:

This world is better off with journalists like Matt then it would be without them. In his detailed explanation outlining his concerns, he concludes with:

I'm not saying that any of this is true. But what I'm saying is that I, as a journalist, refuse to stop asking questions until someone who doesn't have a vested interest in keeping the conspiracy intact can prove me wrong.

That's a legitimate and responsible position for journalists who seek facts. Yet it's resulted in a lot of name-calling and ridicule ... OF Matt ... not FROM Matt, it's worth noting.

Frankly, I don't buy his theories -- there are a lot of holes to plug, and some of the more astute posters have done an admirable job of pointing them out.

But others have simply sneered, lashed out or openly criticized him for refusing to take government or government-induced reports at face-value. That's his job.

Keep it up, Matt, don't let them get you down. Ask your questions and if at some point you get credible facts that fly in the face of established belief, by all means -- please -- publish them.

Right now, you appear to be one of a few asking them -- I'm certainly not and if the contributors here are any measure, not many others are, either. Someone has to. Good luck.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

Frankly, I don't buy his theories -- there are a lot of holes to plug...

Well, Matt is an expert at plugging holes...

:whistle:

[Another side]

Well, Matt is an expert at plugging holes...

:whistle:

For the life of me, I can't figure out what it is that makes you think you're funny. You really are misleading yourself.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

For the life of me, I can't figure out what it is that makes you think you're funny.

That's because you have no sense of humor. You and your boy Prodouche should get a room.

NEXT??????

[Another side]

That's because you have no sense of humor. You and your boy Prodouche should get a room.

NEXT??????

You're reaching, little boy. I long ago said Produce was the most useless poster on the boards. You probably missed it because you were wiping the grin and slobber off your mouth after enjoying your latest childish remark.

You, on the other hand, are not "useless" -- you give comfort to the other sex-starved children still enthralled with sophomoric locker-room humor. And you take pride in it, and foolishly kid yourself that people who don't find you funny have no sense of humor, themselves.

You're a rude, disgusting, self-absorbed one-trick pony and, I'm willing to bet, lonely as hell. If it were up to me -- and it's clearly not -- you'd have been banned for good a long time ago.

You may have the last word, now; I'm done.

[Mighty Dyckerson]

I long ago said Produce was the most useless poster on the boards.

Well at least we agree on something.

You, on the other hand, are not "useless" -- you give comfort to the other sex-starved children still enthralled with sophomoric locker-room humor.

My, aren't we the condescending one? What's your idea of humor? Erma Bombeck? Mark Russell?? I guess we can't all be snotty, elitist pricks like yourself.

You're a rude, disgusting, self-absorbed one-trick pony and, I'm willing to bet, lonely as hell.

Sure, it's easy to dismiss someone as rude, disgusting, lonely, or whatever. It keeps you from having to face the fact that I may actually be more intelligent and better liked than you.

You may have the last word, now; I'm done.

Oh, you're done alright. But I'm sure we haven't heard the last from you. But thanks for playing our game.

[Kace]

What's wrong with Mark Russell? :(

[Mighty Dyckerson]

What's wrong with Mark Russell? :(

He's a one-trick pony.

[TVMattNYC]

Well, Matt is an expert at plugging holes...

:whistle:

YOU of all people ought to know that, Clownie-poo.

[TVMattNYC]

Well, since this thread has references to unicorns, trapezoids longing to be triangles, corn flakes, argyle socks and inflatable dolls, I don't think it's possible to go "off-topic" so I'll add a thought:

This world is better off with journalists like Matt then it would be without them. In his detailed explanation outlining his concerns, he concludes with:



That's a legitimate and responsible position for journalists who seek facts. Yet it's resulted in a lot of name-calling and ridicule ... OF Matt ... not FROM Matt, it's worth noting.

Frankly, I don't buy his theories -- there are a lot of holes to plug, and some of the more astute posters have done an admirable job of pointing them out.

But others have simply sneered, lashed out or openly criticized him for refusing to take government or government-induced reports at face-value. That's his job.

Keep it up, Matt, don't let them get you down. Ask your questions and if at some point you get credible facts that fly in the face of established belief, by all means -- please -- publish them.

Right now, you appear to be one of a few asking them -- I'm certainly not and if the contributors here are any measure, not many others are, either. Someone has to. Good luck.

Thank you.

I'm glad someone sees my point.

I'm not necessarily espousing all aspects of the alleged conspiracy.

But I'm certainly not going to sit nicely and eat the the plate of steaming poo that's been served up to all of us by The Powers That Be without an explanation.

Follow the money trail. That's all I'm saying. Look carefully at who has benefitted financially from 9/11 ... and THEN try to connect the dots. Just because you don't like the picture that emerges doesn't mean it may not be true.

[newz2me]

Look carefully at who has benefitted financially from 9/11 ... and THEN try to connect the dots.
That's what insurance is for. Whether you own a skyscraper or a bowling alley, no one in their right mind doesn't insure their investment. Just because the place burns down, gets hit by a plane etc. doesn't automatically make you guilty.
Example, years ago before lemon laws, I used to own a lemon of a car that I bought new that was nothing but trouble. Chronic engine problems, water leaks and such. One day a drunk driver comes along and sideswipes the car totaling it out. I got the actual book value back for the now 2 year old car and not what the real value was which was probably around $1.98. While I was happy the lemon mobile was no more and I financially benefitted from the demise of said car, I never set out to have a drunk slam into me and destroy it for the insurance money.

[TVMattNYC]

That's what insurance is for. Whether you own a skyscraper or a bowling alley, no one in their right mind doesn't insure their investment. Just because the place burns down, gets hit by a plane etc. doesn't automatically make you guilty.
Example, years ago before lemon laws, I used to own a lemon of a car that I bought new that was nothing but trouble. Chronic engine problems, water leaks and such. One day a drunk driver comes along and sideswipes the car totaling it out. I got the actual book value back for the now 2 year old car and not what the real value was which was probably around $1.98. While I was happy the lemon mobile was no more and I financially benefitted from the demise of said car, I never set out to have a drunk slam into me and destroy it for the insurance money.

I'm talking about the bigger picture here.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from us invading Iraq.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from trashing our civil liberties vis-a-vis the "Patriot" Act.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from Bush's Spy On Me program.

9/11 was merely the catalyst for a hell of a lot of crap that's been shoved down our throats in the name of the War on Terrah.

[east coast producer]

Is it coming down to credibility of eye witnesses? Okay, my communist-loving, Bush-hating, possibly-anarchist father saw the jet hit the Pentagon.

I soooo hate to add, um, fuel to this thread but... there have to be 5 million cameas around the Pentagon. Why is there no video? *ducks*

[theultimatetruth]

FWIW, I am also on "Matt's side."

Throughout my own life experience, I have seen WAY too many instances where the gov't was just feeding me (i.e., us) a pile of steaming crap!

[east coast producer]

Would you want to?

Didn't Produce say he *#&*($&*#$ed a dog?

[TVMattNYC]

I soooo hate to add, um, fuel to this thread but... there have to be 5 million cameas around the Pentagon. Why is there no video? *ducks*

It's CLASSIFIED. Didn't you get the memo?

In fact, it's SO classified that even members of the 9/11 Commission weren't allowed to access it.

I know we're supposed to be obedient and not ask questions, so I'll just stop there.

[east coast producer]

It's CLASSIFIED. Didn't you get the memo?

And not even government surveillance video... but banks, ATMs, store cameras, etc..

.. but still... I don't find any reasonable explaination for WHY the government would conspire to cause trillions of damage to the US economy and kill 3,000 people. We could just make up reasons to go to war, if that's what we wanted, a la Iraq.

And, for what it's worth, while I wasn't here on 9/11, I do walk next to the WTC site several times a week. It's creepy.. especially the first time. I also think it's sick that a new building will be constructed on top of it. It should be turned into a park, IMO.

[TVMattNYC]

And not even government surveillance video... but banks, ATMs, store cameras, etc..

.. but still... I don't find any reasonable explaination for WHY the government would conspire to cause trillions of damage to the US economy and kill 3,000 people. We could just make up reasons to go to war, if that's what we wanted, a la Iraq.

And, for what it's worth, while I wasn't here on 9/11, I do walk next to the WTC site several times a week. It's creepy.. especially the first time. I also think it's sick that a new building will be constructed on top of it. It should be turned into a park, IMO.

"Trillions" of dollars' worth of damage was not done to our economy.

And no one is saying it's a GOVERNMENT conspiracy.

[MyracleMan]

You're probably right: http://www.serendipity.li/wtc6.htm

TVMatt, while I applaud your journalistis integrity for not simply buying the story you have been fed, wile reading your posts, I am constantly reminded of an old adage:

"Secrets are best kept between two men if one of them is dead."

While it's possible this is all part of some insurance scam/Zionist New World Order/government consipracy, it is not probable. Regardless of what you say, there would be far too many players in the know in any one of these conspiracies to make them possible to keep secret. The truth would have leaked out months, if not days, after the tragedy at Ground Zero. There are just too many things that point to the 'official' story being the correct story.

Keep asking questions, Matt. Someone has to. But don't be surprised if you never get the answers you're looking for.

[TVMattNYC]

TVMatt, while I applaud your journalistis integrity for not simply buying the story you have been fed, wile reading your posts, I am constantly reminded of an old adage:

"Secrets are best kept between two men if one of them is dead."

While it's possible this is all part of some insurance scam/Zionist New World Order/government consipracy, it is not probable. Regardless of what you say, there would be far too many players in the know in any one of these conspiracies to make them possible to keep secret. The truth would have leaked out months, if not days, after the tragedy at Ground Zero. There are just too many things that point to the 'official' story being the correct story.

Keep asking questions, Matt. Someone has to. But don't be surprised if you never get the answers you're looking for.

I appreciate your comments.

But believe it or not, quite a few people in positions of power are capable of keeping secrets for decades, if not lifetimes.

Members of the Council on Foreign Relations, and Skull and Bones, for example.

[Spike]

That's a legitimate and responsible position for journalists who seek facts. Yet it's resulted in a lot of name-calling and ridicule ... OF Matt ... not FROM Matt, it's worth noting.

Frankly, I don't buy his theories -- there are a lot of holes to plug, and some of the more astute posters have done an admirable job of pointing them out.

But others have simply sneered, lashed out or openly criticized him for refusing to take government or government-induced reports at face-value. That's his job.

What the hell are you talking about? Matt is not acting as a journalist. He's advancing conspiracy theories on a message board. A journalist with legitimate questions would check them out and pursue the story for publication, not just regurgitate what he reads on overly imaginative websites.

Further, most of these questions have long since been asked and answered. Bringing up the same debunked conspiracy theories again and again and again does not make someone a journalist. It makes him a nut.

But I'm certainly not going to sit nicely and eat the the plate of steaming poo that's been served up to all of us by The Powers That Be without an explanation.

You've gotten explanations. This thread started with a very expensive and comprehensive explanation. You just choose not to believe the explanations, because they don't fit with your preconceived conspiracy theories and prejudices.

And not even government surveillance video... but banks, ATMs, store cameras, etc..

Have you been to the Pentagon? It's sort of down in a hole. There aren't banks, ATMs and stores around where a camera would see anything. The only store within range is the little PX gas station up the hill.

[east coast producer]

"Trillions" of dollars' worth of damage was not done to our economy.

And no one is saying it's a GOVERNMENT conspiracy.

The Washington Post estimated the cost of the Iraq war at $1.5 trillion and $375 billion in Afghanistan. Add the billions of losses to the airlines, billions we spend now adding more security, billions in lost productivity at airports, billions rebuilding wtc, hundreds of millions given to families of 9/11 victims.. and the event's other ripple effect on the economy (loss of tourism, etc) and you don't don't think it cost trillions of dollars of damage?

[east coast producer]

Have you been to the Pentagon? It's sort of down in a hole. There aren't banks, ATMs and stores around where a camera would see anything. The only store within range is the little PX gas station up the hill.

I've driven by it... 1,500 feet away on I-395. You don't think a surveillance camera somewhere would have picked up a low-flying airliner or a massive explosion -- even it was more than 50 feet away from the Pentagon?

[Tripe Face]

I'm talking about the bigger picture here.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from us invading Iraq.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from trashing our civil liberties vis-a-vis the "Patriot" Act.

I'm talking about who's been benefitting from Bush's Spy On Me program.

9/11 was merely the catalyst for a hell of a lot of crap that's been shoved down our throats in the name of the War on Terrah.

Why kill 4,000 Americans just to take us to war against Iraq. We were flying F-15s over Iraq for years when Bush took office, even before 9-11 Rumsfeld and his ilk had been saying for months that they would not tolerate a US warplane being shot down by Iraq. So instead of killing 4,000 people we could have sabotaged the fuel tanks of a pair of f-15s, have them crash in AL Anbar somewhere, pilots get taken hostage and then Bush gang has a reason to go to war, turn back our civil liberties and spy on us.

I won't quibble with you the that Bush administration have used 9-11 as an excuse to metaphorically ***** this entire country with a broomstick. And certainly plenty of companies have profited from what's happened since 9-11 but that doesn't make me think that some group of greedy warmongering Americans attacked us that day. It just convinces me the greedy warmongering bastards (Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Wolfowitz, Feith, McCain) saw it as a perfect opportunity to make money and start a war.

[ewink]

I've driven by it... 1,500 feet away on I-395. You don't think a surveillance camera somewhere would have picked up a low-flying airliner or a massive explosion -- even it was more than 50 feet away from the Pentagon?
There was. The truthers don't like it because it wasn't a full motion camera that captured every frame, rather than just a couple per second.

Otherwise, security cameras are pointed at counters and parking lots, not buildings quite a distance away.

You've gotten explanations. This thread started with a very expensive and comprehensive explanation. You just choose not to believe the explanations, because they don't fit with your preconceived conspiracy theories and prejudices.

This is key here. Truther debunking sites have stacks of facts and science to back up the accepted explanation for things. Thruther sites, on the other hand, deal with 'engineers' and 'scientists' who are proven conspiracy theorists. They also focus in on soundbytes from the middle of the chaos zone on what people thought they saw and what things sound like.

"It looked like a controlled demolition!"

I've seen explosions that looked like a mushroom cloud. Doesn't mean that is was a nuclear bomb.

"Sounded like a freight train!"

It wasn't. It was a tornado.

Everything the truthers claim has been debunked. Despite this, they continue to waste time rambling on and on. Of course they ignore the real problems and questions from that day...

Why were the hijackers allowed to be in the country when some had expired visas?

Why were there so few fighters protecting the ContUS?

Why did NORAD and the FAA have such issues talking? Has this been fixed?

Why did the screeners miss the box cutters? Has this been fixed?

FDNY had radio issues inside the towers, has this been fixed?

Why wasn't the 2nd tower evacuated?

Of course none of this is important to the truthers unless it firmly 'confirms' that the damn Jews killed us so Larry Silverstien could collect insurance and we could invade Iraq.

[Tripe Face]

I've driven by it... 1,500 feet away on I-395. You don't think a surveillance camera somewhere would have picked up a low-flying airliner or a massive explosion -- even it was more than 50 feet away from the Pentagon?

There WAS a surveillance camera... in the parking area.. the photos taken by that camera have been released... they show an American Airlines Jet hitting the Pentagon.

[Tripe Face]

And not even government surveillance video... but banks, ATMs, store cameras, etc..



Look folks, unless you've been there you can't understand how isolated the pentagon is.

This is a map from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1538570_pentagon_300inf.gif

There is NOTHING around the building but parking, one gas station, several highways and the Potomac river.

The parking lot secruity camera that caught the plane hitting the building was the only one that showed the plane.

http://hotair.cachefly.net/hotair.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2006/05/pentagon.jpg

There were some images captured by a security camera at a hotel across the highway from the Pentagon, but all it shows is the piller of black smoke after the plane hit... no plane can seen because the hotel camera was aimed over the roof of the building and the plane flew in below the roof line.

[Jax]

This is a map from the BBC

The source of this map can not be trusted...

THE BBC!?!?! They're tied to the NWO, Council on Foreign Relations, Illuminati, Bilderbergs, Al Qaeda, Justice League, Illegals, the Masons, Texans and much more...

[s'news]

Texans?

[east coast producer]

There WAS a surveillance camera... in the parking area.. the photos taken by that camera have been released... they show an American Airlines Jet hitting the Pentagon.

There was. The truthers don't like it because it wasn't a full motion camera that captured every frame, rather than just a couple per second.

Geez, down Tripe. I didn't know any video was released. I don't recollect having seen any. Sorrrrry. I stand corrected.

[east coast producer]

Look folks, unless you've been there you can't understand how isolated the pentagon is.

This is a map from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/1535000/images/_1538570_pentagon_300inf.gif

There is NOTHING around the building but parking, one gas station, several highways and the Potomac river.

Sure does look desolate from that map.

To the northeast, 44 apartment buildings, 29 banks, 42 bars, 26 hotels, 7 movie theatres, 4 malls, 274 restaurants, high-rise office buildings, 1 U.S. Capitol:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/eascoastproducer/pent2.jpg

To the south, 25 apartment buildings, 6 banks, 4 bars, 11 hotels, 4 malls, 79 restaurants plus high-rise office buildings, 3 metro stations and 1 Reagan National Airport (far bottom right):

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/eascoastproducer/pent1.jpg

.. plus DOT cams and tv station static cameras placed around town.

NONE of them had a camera that got a glimpse of an very, very, very lowflying airliner? (Not even the impact.. just it flying at 100 feet.) I don't believe we fired a missile at the Pentagon, but I remain surprised there isn't an actual video of the plane (beyond that frame Tripe posted of what I guess is the plane).

[Another side]

What the hell are you talking about?

You really don't know what I'm talking about?

Seriously?

I thought it was pretty clear.

[TVMattNYC]

There WAS a surveillance camera... in the parking area.. the photos taken by that camera have been released... they show an American Airlines Jet hitting the Pentagon.

Actually, they don't.

They show SOMETHING hitting the Pentagon.

But you cannot tell what that something is because one frame shows the very tip of the "airplane" (which looks way too pointed to look like the nose of any passenger jetliner), and the next frame shows an explosion.

[TVMattNYC]

most of these questions have long since been asked and answered.

You've gotten explanations. This thread started with a very expensive and comprehensive explanation. You just choose not to believe the explanations, because they don't fit with your preconceived conspiracy theories and prejudices.


No, Boo ... they haven't.

Lying is not answering.

Lying is not "explaining".

There's a difference.

[Spike]

No, Boo ... they haven't.

Lying is not answering.

Lying is not "explaining".

There's a difference.

The difference is that you simply don't want to believe the explanations, so you say they are "lies" and continue to live in your fantasy land with Neil Patrick Harris and the unicorns.

[wx or not]

...108...

[Spike]

You really don't know what I'm talking about?


It was a rhetorical question. I guess if you're dumb enough to mistake nutty conspiracy theorists for "journalists" you might have misunderstood.

[Another side]

Aw, c'mon ... it wasn't a "rhetorical" question; it was a "dumb" question. We both know that.

[Spike]

Aw, c'mon ... it wasn't a "rhetorical" question; it was a "dumb" question.

Not nearly as dumb as mistaking nutty conspiracy theories for "journalism."

[ewink]

.. plus DOT cams and tv station static cameras placed around town.

NONE of them had a camera that got a glimpse of an very, very, very lowflying airliner? (Not even the impact.. just it flying at 100 feet.) I don't believe we fired a missile at the Pentagon, but I remain surprised there isn't an actual video of the plane (beyond that frame Tripe posted of what I guess is the plane).

DOT cameras don't record unless someone makes a point of recording. Same with TV cameras. And I again contend, security cameras are not pointed towards the sky. They are pointed at counters and parking lots.

I've worked security at Best Buy, Target and just regularly worked at many gas stations and restaurants. I have also worked maintaining ATM machines. None of these places had any cameras that could see an aircraft unless they came pulling up to one of the pumps or through the drive through windows. Maybe, an exception would be Best Buy and Target, but the camera would have to be positioned to look towards the sky - or in this case the Pentagon.

It's the nature of security cameras.

ECP, my friend, Do you want to be a truther? :) Is that why you're straining so hard?

[TVMattNYC]

The difference is that you simply don't want to believe the explanations, so you say they are "lies" and continue to live in your fantasy land with Neil Patrick Harris and the unicorns.

Actually, Boo, the "explanations" are NUTTIER than the conspiracy "theories". If you weren't such a lazy copy-and-paste journalist you'd realize that.

[Kace]

Not nearly as dumb as mistaking nutty conspiracy theories for "journalism."

Hey, it appears to work for the Government. :whistle:

[Jax]

Lying is not answering.

Lying is not "explaining".

The only lies I've seen on this thread have come from you...

[Spike]

Actually, Boo, the "explanations" are NUTTIER than the conspiracy "theories".

Only if you've decided not to believe them before you ever read them.

[TVMattNYC]

Only if you've decided not to believe them before you ever read them.

I've read them, Boo ... and I don't believe them.

But I suppose in YOUR little world, anyone who doesn't swallow the government's official story on ANYTHING is branded a nutcase and "conspiracy theorist".

[wx or not]

...106...

[ewink]

I've read them, Boo ... and I don't believe them.

But I suppose in YOUR little world, anyone who doesn't swallow the government's official story on ANYTHING is branded a nutcase and "conspiracy theorist".
Only when your counter explanations have been debunked and debunked, yet you still refuse to believe the accepted explanations.

[Tripe Face]

Sure does look desolate from that map.

To the northeast, 44 apartment buildings, 29 banks, 42 bars, 26 hotels, 7 movie theatres, 4 malls, 274 restaurants, high-rise office buildings, 1 U.S. Capitol:

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/eascoastproducer/pent2.jpg

To the south, 25 apartment buildings, 6 banks, 4 bars, 11 hotels, 4 malls, 79 restaurants plus high-rise office buildings, 3 metro stations and 1 Reagan National Airport (far bottom right):

http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b38/eascoastproducer/pent1.jpg

.. plus DOT cams and tv station static cameras placed around town.

NONE of them had a camera that got a glimpse of an very, very, very lowflying airliner? (Not even the impact.. just it flying at 100 feet.) I don't believe we fired a missile at the Pentagon, but I remain surprised there isn't an actual video of the plane (beyond that frame Tripe posted of what I guess is the plane).

ECP look at your own photos...

It IS isolated... to the NORTHEAST, there is Parking, a highway, a marina, another highway and THE POTOMAC RIVER. Then you get the 44 apartment buildings etc..

To the South is more PARKING and I-395 which is elevated and if I recall correctly, about 10 lanes wide at that point... THEN there is 25 apartment buildings etc..

Oh and buy the way, all those apartments, bars, banks and such... where do they point their cameras? AWAY from their buildings, their Banks or AT them? Even ATMs where the camera shoots OUT from the machine, only works when some one uses it... and then there's a person right there in the way. and the camera is designed to get a clear picture of the person.. not some building a mile away.

The hotel surveillence camera I referred to was only able to see the Pentagon because it was NOT SET CORRECTLY... but it was a surveillence camera and like the Pentagon Parking camera it was not state of the art HD quality video it captured.

DOT cameras focus down on HIGHWAYS... not on buildings, so what makes you think any of them would have captured the plane?

Oh, and Yes there WAS at least ONE tv robo cam capable of seeing the Pentagon. It was perched on top of what was the USA Today building in Rossyln... and it was controlled by WUSA TV the station I was working for that day. And I was in the Control Room from the moment CBS showed the first pics of the burning WTC until the middle of that afternoon. At one point someone from the newsroom shouted in my headset "Pentagon"... I told the director to punch up that camera, it was already being moved from where it was pointed that morning (somewhere in DC I believe like the Wash. Monument or Capitol Dome) and when our TD put it in the preview monitor the Pentagon quickly filled the screen and that big black cloud of smoke still hadn't reached the top of the frame... we didn't get the shot of the plane hitting the building... only the very immediate aftermath. As for WRC, WTTG and WJLA I don't know where their cameras were... But I think had they captured video of that plane that day... we all would have seen it by 6:30pm on 9/11/2001.

[TVMattNYC]

we didn't get the shot of the plane hitting the building... only the very immediate aftermath. As for WRC, WTTG and WJLA I don't know where their cameras were... But I think had they captured video of that plane that day... we all would have seen it by 6:30pm on 9/11/2001.

And yet ... we DIDN'T ...

[Tripe Face]

And yet ... we DIDN'T ...

OH, so you are saying that the employees of WJLA, WRC and/or WTTG know that their station has video of this plane or missile or homeless illegal alien constuction workers hitting the pentagon and not only did they not air it RIGHT AWAY... that they let their bosses hide it from the public... and not ONE of them has ever spoken publicly about this.

Are their any straws left for you to grab at?

[TVMattNYC]

OH, so you are saying that the employees of WJLA, WRC and/or WTTG know that their station has video of this plane or missile or homeless illegal alien constuction workers hitting the pentagon and not only did they not air it RIGHT AWAY... that they let their bosses hide it from the public... and not ONE of them has ever spoken publicly about this.

Are their any straws left for you to grab at?

I'm just saying ... if they HAVE the video, why have we not seen it?

[newz2me]

As long as we're coming up with theories:
http://bp2.blogger.com/_wOgiSnUT4UA/R_F4M4DEAbI/AAAAAAAAAKA/QZIm7YSFC60/s320/Gremlins+1-700210.jpg

[Jax]

I'm just saying ... if they HAVE the video, why have we not seen it?

For the same reason we haven't seen the UFO tapes -- you (clearly...) can't handle the truth.

[TVMattNYC]

For the same reason we haven't seen the UFO tapes -- you (clearly...) can't handle the truth.

Oh I'm TELLING the truth.

Perhaps the reason why we're not seeing the tapes is because it's all the REST of you who can't handle the truth.

[FD2BLK]

Oh I'm TELLING the truth.

Perhaps the reason why we're not seeing the tapes is because it's all the REST of you who can't handle the truth.

Or perhaps, if there is no video, it's easier to pint the finger at people asking these questions and call them all crazy.

[wx or not]

...103...

[Tripe Face]

I'm just saying ... if they HAVE the video, why have we not seen it?

What IF??? They DON'T have the video... No ONE has video that would satisfy your warped mind. So give it up.

[Kace]

Perhaps we should all give it up unless something comes along that changes everyone's mind or satisfies the masses.

[ShakAttack]

MattNYC, I'm curious to know who you think maybe the real perpetrators behind the 9/11 attacks?

You've described your possible theories in a well-written response earlier on in this thread. So, if you were to head this investigation, which potential lead would you go after first? Feel free to prioritize from #1 to #3.

[Tripe Face]

Perhaps we should all give it up unless something comes along that changes everyone's mind or satisfies the masses.

Yes, Mr. Kace. Sorry, Mr. Kace.

[Kace]

:hug:

[wx or not]

Perhaps we should all give it up unless something comes along that changes everyone's mind or satisfies the masses.
Are you kidding? He's so close to 5,000 posts.

[Tippster]

TVMatt:

http://www.rense.com/general32/phot.htm

Please, stfu now - the Pentagon was hit by an AIRPLANE. Those of us who stood next to the gas station for a month pointing our cameras at the smoldering hole thank you for ceasing your idiocy. Stick to WTC 7 - that's your neck of the woods.

BTW - one of the busiest landing paths in the nation is right next to the Pentagon. Low flying aircraft are not necessarily uncommon, understand?

[Kace]

I recall one of the eyewitnesses talking about seeing the plane headed towards the Pentagon and ducking under a vehicle parked nearby.

[TVMattNYC]

MattNYC, I'm curious to know who you think maybe the real perpetrators behind the 9/11 attacks?

You've described your possible theories in a well-written response earlier on in this thread. So, if you were to head this investigation, which potential lead would you go after first? Feel free to prioritize from #1 to #3.

Who are the real perpetrators? I really don't know. But here's where I'd like to investigate:

September 11, 2001 5:20 PM: Building 7 of the World Trade Center collapses. [CNN, 9/12/01] Though the media claims fires brought the building down, the building's owner Larry Silverstein later recounts the story of the collapse of this 47-story skyscraper in a PBS documentary America Rebuilds, "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander. ... I said ... maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it. And they made that decision to pull, and then we watched the building collapse." [PBS Documentary]

Sept 11, 2001: Six air traffic controllers who dealt with two of the hijacked airliners make a tape recording describing the events, but the tape is later destroyed by a supervisor without anyone making a transcript or even listening to it. [Washington Post, 5/6/04, New York Times, 5/6/04]

Sept 14, 2001: The two black boxes for Flight 77 are found. [PBS, 9/14/01] FBI Director Robert Mueller later says Flight 77's data recorder provides altitude, speed, headings and other information, but the voice recorder contains “nothing useful.” [CBS, 2/23/02] Yet they refuse to release the recordings.

Sept 20-23, 2001: "Five of the alleged hijackers have emerged, alive, innocent and astonished to see their names and photographs appearing on satellite television. ... The hijackers were using stolen identities, and investigators are studying the possibility that the entire suicide squad consisted of impostors." [quote from London Times, 9/20/01, see also BBC, 9/23/01, more] Yet these same individuals are later officially established as the 9/11 hijackers in the 2004 9/11 Commission Report.

Nov 12, 2001—Mar 25, 2002: 13 renowned microbiologists mysteriously die over the span of less than five months. All but one are killed or murdered under unusual circumstances. Some are world leaders in developing weapons-grade biological plagues. Others are the best in figuring out how to stop millions from dying because of biological weapons. Still others are experts in the theory of bioterrorism. [Globe and Mail, 5/4/02] Nov 12: Benito Que, 52, an expert in infectious diseases—killed in carjacking, later deemed possible stroke. [Globe and Mail, 5/4/02] Nov. 16: Don Wiley, 57, one of the world's leading researchers of deadly viruses—body found in Mississippi River. [CNN, 12/22/01] Nov 21: Dr. Vladimir Pasechnik, 64, an expert in adapting germs and viruses for military use—stroke. [New York Times, 11/23/01] Dec 10: Dr. Robert Schwartz, 57, a leading researcher on DNA sequencing analysis—slain at home. [Washington Post, 12/12/01] Dec 14: Nguyen Van Set, 44, his research organization had just come to fame for discovering a virus which can be modified to affect smallpox—dies in an airlock in his lab. [Sydney Morning Herald, 12/12/01] Jan 2002: Ivan Glebov (bandit attack) and Alexi Brushlinski (killed in Moscow), both world-renowned members of the Russian Academy of Science. [Pravda, 2/9/02] Feb 9: Victor Korshunov, 56, head of the microbiology sub-faculty at the Russian State Medical University—killed by cranial injury. [Pravda, 2/9/02] Feb 11: Ian Langford, 40, one of Europe's leading experts on environmental risk—murdered in home. [London Times, 2/13/02] Feb 28 (2): Tanya Holzmayer, 46, helped create drugs that interfere with replication of the virus that causes AIDS, and Guyang Huang, 38, a brilliant scholar highly regarded in genetics—murder/suicide. [San Jose Mercury News, 2/28/02] Mar 24: David Wynn-Williams, 55, an astrobiologist with NASA Ames Research Center—killed while jogging. [London Times, 3/27/02] Mar 25: Steven Mostow, 63, an expert on the threat of bioterrorism—private plane crash. [KUSA TV/NBC, 3/26/02]

Dec 25, 2001: Leading structural engineers and fire-safety experts believe the investigation into the collapse of the WTC is "inadequate.” They note that the current team of 20 or so investigators has inadequate financial and staff support, has been prevented from interviewing witnesses and from examining the disaster site. They couldn’t even get detailed blueprints of the World Trade Center. The decision to rapidly recycle the steel beams from the WTC means definitive answers may never be known. [New York Times, 12/25/01]

Jan 4, 2002: An editorial in the respected trade magazine Fire Engineering states that there is good reason to believe that the "official investigation," blessed by FEMA, into the WTC collapse is a "half-baked farce" that may already have been commandeered by political forces whose primary interests are clearly not full disclosure. "Respected members of the fire protection engineering community are beginning to raise red flags, and a resonating theory has emerged: The structural damage from the planes and the explosive ignition of jet fuel in themselves were not enough to bring down the towers." [Fire Engineering, 1/02]

Mar 2, 2002: The 9/11 collapse of the 47-story WTC building 7 was the first time a modern, steel-reinforced high-rise in the US has ever collapsed in a fire. [New York Times, 3/2/02] Building 7 was where the SEC was storing files related to numerous Wall Street investigations. The files for approximately 3,000 to 4,000 cases were destroyed. [National Law Journal, 9/17/01] Lost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. [The Street, 8/9/02, more]

Just as a start.

[TAFKA wacowx]

September 11, 2001 5:20 PM: Building 7 of the World Trade Center collapses. [CNN, 9/12/01] Though the media claims fires brought the building down, the building's owner Larry Silverstein later recounts the story of the collapse of this 47-story skyscraper in a PBS documentary America Rebuilds, "I remember getting a call from the fire department commander. ... I said ... maybe the smartest thing to do is to pull it. And they made that decision to pull, and then we watched the building collapse." [PBS Documentary]

I don't want to get too deep into this, but Matt...right here is an example of how odd your theory is:

Maybe the smartest thing is to pull it? I guess he is thinking: "After all, we already had the building wired for demolition:", so after the call from the fire department commander that's when he decides to go through with imploding the building?!? Why not just do it earlier? I mean, he had his building set to go already...why wait until so late in the afternoon? Why consult with the fire department. Bring it down closer to the other towers...maybe around 11 or noon. For some reason it was the fire department who discussed with him that the building was beyond saving, so he tells them to hit the big red button at the desk in the lobby...since the building is all ready to be 'pulled'.

I get so frustrated seeing people use that quote to build a case that the building was imploded.

And I also take incredible issue with your theory that the people involved in a demolition of this size could keep it a secret. It's NOT just a few people who could have handled a job this big. When a building a quarter of the size of ONE Trade Center tower is imploded, there is a whole team of demolition experts who go in and set the explosives and run thick metal cabling through the building to help it collapse in the way that they want it to. The process takes weeks to complete. So somehow, this was done without anyone knowing...either by a small team of 2-3 people working for YEARS (doesn't fit the conspiracy since this was puroportedly created by the Bush adminstration to start the war with Iraq) or by a large (hundreds) group of demolition experts...NONE of which have talked to this day?!?!? Come on...seriously?

I agree we need to be objective and ask questions, but your conspiracy theories border on delusional at times.

[ShakAttack]

Who are the real perpetrators? I really don't know. But here's where I'd like to investigate:
................................................

September 11, 2001 5:20 PM: Building 7 of the World Trade Center collapses. [National Law Journal, 9/17/01] Lost files include documents that could show the relationship between Citigroup and the WorldCom bankruptcy. [The Street, 8/9/02, more]

Just as a start.

Once again, thanks for a detailed and well-articulated response, MattNYC. It's evident that you have a lot of conviction in your theory, and you'll not sway away from it -- no matter what your detractors say or how much you're ridiculed for it. I sincerely applaud you for that, Matt (even though an anonymous chatroom applause doesn't mean anything to anyone!).

What's interesting is that over the weekend, at a cocktail gathering, I heard two well-educated and successful talking heads discussing this very topic and sharing some of your outlandish (for lack of a better word) views in a candid manner. Both of these senior guys are registered/well recognized Republicans in the community.

[TVMattNYC]

I don't want to get too deep into this, but Matt...right here is an example of how odd your theory is:

Maybe the smartest thing is to pull it? I guess he is thinking: "After all, we already had the building wired for demolition:", so after the call from the fire department commander that's when he decides to go through with imploding the building?!? Why not just do it earlier? I mean, he had his building set to go already...why wait until so late in the afternoon? Why consult with the fire department. Bring it down closer to the other towers...maybe around 11 or noon. For some reason it was the fire department who discussed with him that the building was beyond saving, so he tells them to hit the big red button at the desk in the lobby...since the building is all ready to be 'pulled'.


I don't know. Why don't you ask HIM? I'm only repeating his own words.

[wx or not]

And I also take incredible issue with your theory that the people involved in a demolition of this size could keep it a secret. It's NOT just a few people who could have handled a job this big. When a building a quarter of the size of ONE Trade Center tower is imploded, there is a whole team of demolition experts who go in and set the explosives and run thick metal cabling through the building to help it collapse in the way that they want it to. The process takes weeks to complete. So somehow, this was done without anyone knowing...either by a small team of 2-3 people working for YEARS (doesn't fit the conspiracy since this was puroportedly created by the Bush adminstration to start the war with Iraq) or by a large (hundreds) group of demolition experts...NONE of which have talked to this day?!?!? Come on...seriously?

Great, waco. Bring LOGIC into this! What's next?:whistle:

[TVMattNYC]

Once again, thanks for a detailed and well-articulated response, MattNYC. It's evident that you have a lot of conviction in your theory, and you'll not sway away from it -- no matter what your detractors say or how much you're ridiculed for it. I sincerely applaud you for that, Matt (even though an anonymous chatroom applause doesn't mean anything to anyone!).

What's interesting is that over the weekend, at a cocktail gathering, I heard two well-educated and successful talking heads discussing this very topic and sharing some of your outlandish (for lack of a better word) views in a candid manner. Both of these senior guys are registered/well recognized Republicans in the community.

Thanks, Shak.

I'd just like to remind you and everyone else that at many times in history, some rather "outlandish" views eventually turned out to be solid truths.

Hitler incinerating Jews.

Earth being round.

Disease caused by micro-organisms, rather than evil spirits.

Just to name a few.

[Kace]

All this talk about odd theories yet the only seemingly satisfactory version involves, "They uhh...hate our freedom and stuff."

[newz2me]

It makes you think....
http://openline.medialine.com/showthread.php?t=25393

[Jax]

This just in! The 911 conspiracy has been exposed! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vA4RvAf2Vds&feature=related)

[newz2me]

FYI History Channel has a show on 9/11 conspiracies at 10 eastern tonight.