Marine vs Puppy

[Starsky]

http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/43462/9fb16ab3/us_soldaat_gooit_puppy.html

Is it real or a hoax? My bet, a fringe group created this video in an effort to demonize the US military.

[Spike]

Motari wins. Fatality.

[Paper Trail]

(CNN) (http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/03/04/puppy.marine/?iref=mpstoryview) -- The military is investigating a "shocking and deplorable" YouTube video that seems to show a Marine throwing a puppy off a rocky cliff.

The black-and-white puppy makes a yelping sound as it flies through the air.

"That's mean, that was mean," one companion says off-camera, addressing the alleged puppy thrower by his last name. The fate of the animal is not known.

The Marine is identified on the video and in other Internet postings as a lance corporal stationed at Marine Corps Base Hawaii in Kaneohe.

It's not clear where the video was shot, although the man who appears to throw the puppy and another Marine are in full combat gear with helmets.

YouTube.com had taken down the video by 12:30 p.m. ET Tuesday "due to terms of use violation," according to a banner on the Web site.

"This is a shocking and deplorable video that is contrary to the high standards that we set for every Marine," Marine Corps spokesman Maj. Chris Perrine said at a news conference Monday night.

"We will investigate this and take appropriate actions," Perrine said.

He said the Marine is being kept safe in view of the anger over the alleged incident.

Perrine added that the majority of Marines conduct themselves honorably.

"There are many examples of Marines who adopt pets and bring them back from Iraq and demonstrate their compassion on a daily basis," he said.

If the video is deemed legitimate, the lance corporal could face a charge of conduct unbecoming a Marine, Perrine said. There could be administrative action, nonjudicial punishment or a court-martial, he added.


"It's all governed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice, and anything from reduction in pay to reduction in rank to confinement to discharge from the Marine Corps" is possible, Perrine said. If others are involved, they too will be disciplined, he said.

"Certainly, there's a lot of outrage, and a lot of people are upset about it. I think every Marine is upset about this video," he said. "We hope that it turns out not to be what it looks like."

[Paper Trail]

Los Angeles Times (http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/webscout/2008/03/marines-looking.html)
The Marine Corps released a statement today that it is investigating a video that began circulating online yesterday of a uniformed Marine throwing a puppy off a cliff.

The video is here, but beware, it's unsettling. Note: Citing a terms-of-use violation, YouTube removed its most-watched version of the video, even after it had been posted for a day and had received worldwide attention and become a legitimate news story.

In the video, a second Marine identifies the first by name;

"That was mean, Motari," he says, unconvincingly.

Online denizens quickly located the Bebo.com profile of a Marine named David Motari. The Marine Corps press office confirmed that Motari is, or at one time was, in the corps.

A phone number and address for a David Motari was repeatedly posted on the Bebo profile and in the comments on the Digg entry that led to the video. When I called the number, it had been disconnected.

There's a debate to be had about where the death of a puppy lies along the spectrum of war horrors, and why a video like this can gain wide online attention when other outrageous footage -- say, involving the death of humans -- is only rarely circulated. Any thoughts?

[Paper Trail]

http://www.mahalo.com/David_Motari

[Starsky]

I am fairly confident the video is fake. I just can't see 3 people being that heartless and that stupid. Of course, I could be wrong, but this seems like the work of Moveon.org or some other fringe group who wants to defame the US military.

[HushHush]

I was shocked obviously when I first saw the video - but when I took a second look - was the puppy already deceased? It's eyes were closed - and it didn't struggle at all being held by the nape of the neck. Nor did it flail around as it was tossed over the edge. Someone else in the background could have faked the dog yelps.

If the puppy was already deceased - it's still no excuse to toss it aside like garbage. But perhaps we should hear the soilders side of the story before we persecute him?

[MyracleMan]

We just ran a story tonight about someone who shot a family dog in its' backyard, killing it. I was outraged over that... if this is true, Motari better hope I never meet him in a dark alley.

[Fire Hydrogant]

I am fairly confident the video is fake. I just can't see 3 people being that heartless and that stupid.
That's your basis for believing the video to be fake? Well, I CAN see people being that heartless and stupid. -LOTS of people. As a news photographer, I've done stories about dogs being dragged, starved, burned, beaten, and even sodomized. What kind of sheltered life have you been living that you "can't see" people committing animal abuse?

[Mr. Rugen]

That's a video of two marine douchebags.

[Starsky]

That's your basis for believing the video to be fake? Well, I CAN see people being that heartless and stupid. -LOTS of people. As a news photographer, I've done stories about dogs being dragged, starved, burned, beaten, and even sodomized. What kind of sheltered life have you been living that you "can't see" people committing animal abuse?
I can't believe that 3 different Marines who probably come from 3 unique backgrounds would, could or even have the opportunity to do something like this. I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to video tape the effort and post it online considering the hate for anything military as evidenced in Berkeley, CA.

It doesn't add up. The video is fake. I am 98% certain.

[Spike]

I was shocked obviously when I first saw the video - but when I took a second look - was the puppy already deceased? It's eyes were closed - and it didn't struggle at all being held by the nape of the neck. Nor did it flail around as it was tossed over the edge. Someone else in the background could have faked the dog yelps.

That argument isn't very convincing. Almost all young animals have an instinct to hang loosely and NOT move or struggle at all when being held by the nape of the neck. They evolved that way so that their mothers could move them around easily. I've seen puppies just go limp like that. I've seen kittens do it. Even my ferrets used to do it.

The fact that the puppy wasn't struggling means absolutely nothing.

I can't believe that 3 different Marines who probably come from 3 unique backgrounds would, could or even have the opportunity to do something like this. I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to video tape the effort and post it online considering the hate for anything military as evidenced in Berkeley, CA.

The problem with your theory is that only one of them threw the dog. The other two didn't necessarily have to know what Motari was going to do with the dog. The guy videotaping didn't necessarily know he was going to do it. What you might have had there is one guy who is obviously disturbed and two other guys who didn't realize how disturbed that guy was and were just going with the flow up until that point.

Maybe that's WHY we're seeing the video. Perhaps the guy who took that video uploaded it because he felt Motari was a scumbag and wanted to see him pay for it.

[Zero]

My bet, a fringe group created this video in an effort to demonize the US military.

You'd lose. It's a real dog. It's a real Marine. It's a real shame.

And it's pretty pathetic that your first response is to blame a liberal.

[MyracleMan]

I can't believe that 3 different Marines who probably come from 3 unique backgrounds would, could or even have the opportunity to do something like this. I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to video tape the effort and post it online considering the hate for anything military as evidenced in Berkeley, CA.

It doesn't add up. The video is fake. I am 98% certain.

All right... there's just too many things wrong with this statement... I'm almost going on overload... okay... calming down...now, where to start....

1) your tremendous leap of logic is what is referred to as a 'non sequiter.' That's Latin for 'does not follow.' It simply does not follow that the isolated incident in Berkeley translates to a universal, all-consuming hatred for all things military. That incident doesn't even have anything to do with this one. They're two totally different things.

2) Look at the photos that came out of Abu Grahib. Those soldiers came from different backgrounds, different upbringings, came together in Iraq and went, 'Hey, wouldn't it be funny to strip these guys naked, stack them up, and take pictures?'

3) With the number of stray dogs that wander the desert outside of cities and towns in Iraq (evidenced by the number of stories done about marines and other soldiers adopting dogs and bringing them home), it would be nothing for three marines on patrol to find a puppy and toss it off a cliff.

4) The military is an accurate cross-section of the nation as a whole. They are, for the most part, honest, hardworking, honorable people. But,m just like there are some people who feel that if a neighbor's dog barks too much,t hey have every right to shoot and kill it, there are people who feel perfectly justified in picking up an 8-week old puppy and tossing it over a cliff.


If it's fake, it's in very poor taste.

If it's real.. the marines responsible should be tossed off a cliff. Yo do that to a poor, defenseless little puppy... reprehensible, disgusting human beings.

You're 98% certain the video is fake... I'm 98% sure it's real.

Edit to add:
I just re-watched the video three more times... it sounds like the pup is whimpering when he's holding it. It's definately alive.

[HushHush]

That argument isn't very convincing. Almost all young animals have an instinct to hang loosely and NOT move or struggle at all when being held by the nape of the neck. They evolved that way so that their mothers could move them around easily. I've seen puppies just go limp like that. I've seen kittens do it. Even my ferrets used to do it.

The fact that the puppy wasn't struggling means absolutely nothing.

It wasn't an argument - it was a question. The puppy looked dead to me. Perhaps it's my way of dealing with the unthinkable - to question that someone could actually do that. Because anyone who would actually do this to a puppy is beyond evil and deserves the worst punishment imaginable.

[Zero]

The U.S. has been killing innocent people and torturing human beings in Iraq for years. And suddenly there's all this sympathy and outrage over a puppy.

[Starsky]

The problem with your theory is that only one of them threw the dog. The other two didn't necessarily have to know what Motari was going to do with the dog. The guy videotaping didn't necessarily know he was going to do it. What you might have had there is one guy who is obviously disturbed and two other guys who didn't realize how disturbed that guy was and were just going with the flow up until that point.
Exaclty, wouldn't you think you would hear a gasp, sound of shock or even a mild rebuke?

Maybe that's WHY we're seeing the video. Perhaps the guy who took that video uploaded it because he felt Motari was a scumbag and wanted to see him pay for it.
He would have reacted while he was shooting the video.

Besides, I don't know the timeline, but doesn't the military have a pretty good clamp on internet usage in Iraq and Afghanistan? I seem to remember some pretty tough guidelines on uploading video.

[Starsky]

All right... there's just too many things wrong with this statement... I'm almost going on overload... okay... calming down...now, where to start....

1) your tremendous leap of logic is what is referred to as a 'non sequiter.' That's Latin for 'does not follow.' It simply does not follow that the isolated incident in Berkeley translates to a universal, all-consuming hatred for all things military. That incident doesn't even have anything to do with this one. They're two totally different things.
The hate for the military is different from hate for the military? If a white man killed a black man, and that white man is a known racist. Is it a non-sequitor to say the white man was a racist? I am not saying the hate for the US military is universal, I am saying it exists. Are you telling me it doesn't? Are you telling me that there are not some people who have an all-consuming hatred for the US military? Are you telling me that anti-war radicals wouldn't go as far as make a fake video or even misrepresent the video? Where does your logic begin or end, because I think it fits neatly inside a very narrow minded box.

and...
anti-war guy says
The U.S. has been killing innocent people and torturing human beings in Iraq for years. And suddenly there's all this sympathy and outrage over a puppy.

2) Look at the photos that came out of Abu Grahib. Those soldiers came from different backgrounds, different upbringings, came together in Iraq and went, 'Hey, wouldn't it be funny to strip these guys naked, stack them up, and take pictures?'
Yes, and the military became extremely anal about soldiers taking pictures and video after that point. Besides, you are using a non-sequitor. What do prison guards who were following orders have to do with a fake video tape?

3) With the number of stray dogs that wander the desert outside of cities and towns in Iraq (evidenced by the number of stories done about marines and other soldiers adopting dogs and bringing them home), it would be nothing for three marines on patrol to find a puppy and toss it off a cliff.
Marines go on patrol with a video camera in groups of 3? And just because there have been a few stories about a few dogs, how can you justify making that LEAP OF LOGIC that there is a large number of stray dogs in Iraq.

4) The military is an accurate cross-section of the nation as a whole. They are, for the most part, honest, hardworking, honorable people. But,m just like there are some people who feel that if a neighbor's dog barks too much,t hey have every right to shoot and kill it, there are people who feel perfectly justified in picking up an 8-week old puppy and tossing it over a cliff.
Your are just gulliable and believe anything presented to you that confirms your decision making process.


If it's fake, it's in very poor taste.

If it's real.. the marines responsible should be tossed off a cliff. Yo do that to a poor, defenseless little puppy... reprehensible, disgusting human beings.
We can agree.

You're 98% certain the video is fake... I'm 98% sure it's real.

Edit to add:
I just re-watched the video three more times... it sounds like the pup is whimpering when he's holding it. It's definately alive.
Sound effects.

[Angel's Hell]

I am fairly confident the video is fake. I just can't see 3 people being that heartless and that stupid. Of course, I could be wrong, but this seems like the work of Moveon.org or some other fringe group who wants to defame the US military.


Even if it's not a marine, it's still a man throwing a very cute puppy a long ways. That ****er should die!

[Starsky]

Even if it's not a marine, it's still a man throwing a very cute puppy a long ways. That ****er should die!
I don't even think it was a dog that was thrown.
Besides, I don't think a dog would flip like that when tossed. Nor do I believe a person could grip the dog tight enough to toss it such a distance. You would certainly hear a murmor from the pup if he held on that tight. Especially in the process of throwing.

This video is fake.

[TTBoy]

it's still a man throwing a very cute puppy a long ways. That ****er should die!

-----------------------------------


And they say a Woman wouldn't be decisive enough to be President?

[Christian Doppler]

I don't even think it was a dog that was thrown.
Besides, I don't think a dog would flip like that when tossed. Nor do I believe a person could grip the dog tight enough to toss it such a distance. You would certainly hear a murmor from the pup if he held on that tight. Especially in the process of throwing.

This video is fake.


you gave up all credibility on this issue when you said.
"My bet, a fringe group created this video in an effort to demonize the US military"

[Starsky]

you gave up all credibility on this issue when you said.
"My bet, a fringe group created this video in an effort to demonize the US military"
Yes, because anti-war wackos are fair and just in their protest effort. They are people of the highest integrity and they always make their position known in the most honorable of ways. :(

[AF Wifey]

All I have to say about this video, as an owner of a (now) 16 month old dog that was given to me when she was 8 weeks old, there is nothing I saw in that video that would make me doubt that was a live puppy.

[Starsky]

Throw your dog. I guarantee he doesn't spin like the video. Go ahead, just try to make your dog do one flip. Dogs move you know. They respond to actions and have a fight or flee mechanism when they are in danger.

Also, did you see the dog move after he landed? That impact wouldn't have killed him...maybe knock him out, maybe. But it wouldn't have killed him.

Sorry, the video is a fake. All military men are not evil

[AF Wifey]

Nobody said all military people are evil. Get a grip.

My 8 week old dog weighed exactly one pound when I got her. That one looks to weigh @ 3 lbs.

IMO it is entirely possible that puppy was alive. Argue with somebody else.

[MyracleMan]

Starsky, you said:

I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to video tape the effort and post it online considering the hate for anything military as evidenced in Berkeley, CA.


That line says that you think the incident in Berkeley is evidence of a universal hatred of all things military. If you meant to say that the alleged puppy incident, like the incident in Berkeley, will serve to further anti-military sentiment, then that is what you should have said. Learn to be more clear about what you mean; it's a valuable tool.

With statements like:
Where does your logic begin or end, because I think it fits neatly inside a very narrow minded box you make very broad assumptions about me after a very short time on this board. I agree anti-military sentiment exists, but your statement implied it was universal. It is not.

As for the Abu Grahib guards 'just following orders,' that was a statement made by one of the guards at his trial. There was never any evidence that they were just following orders. You are making gross assumptions on something unsupported by evidence.

And do you know anything about history? Anytime there is a war, there are huge numbers of animals made homeless by those wars, becasue there are usually huge numbers of people made homeless by those wars. They're traditionally called refugees. There are huge numbers of homeless animals outside of the large cities of Iraq. Read Time, Newsweek, and USA Today.

And yes, lots of soldiers videotape their patrols. It's called intelligence gathering.

Your are just gulliable and believe anything presented to you that confirms your decision making process.

Watch yourself, newbie. You once again are making gross assumptions about me based on very little time on this board. Until I can see a better quality video, frame by frame, field by field, I cannot say for certain if the video is real or not. But I have seen too many times the evil that men do. There is nothing human beings are not capable of, including killing innocent young animals for fun. I'll believe it's not real when we get the frame analysis.

Could it have been faked by an organization like Moveon.org? Sure. Is it likely? No.

[Roy Hobbs]

That's a video of two marine douchebags.

Ah yes, the enlightened eloquence our children need teaching them in the classroom.

[MyracleMan]

Throw your dog. I guarantee he doesn't spin like the video. Go ahead, just try to make your dog do one flip. Dogs move you know. They respond to actions and have a fight or flee mechanism when they are in danger.

Also, did you see the dog move after he landed? That impact wouldn't have killed him...maybe knock him out, maybe. But it wouldn't have killed him.

Sorry, the video is a fake. All military men are not evil

Dude, the dog GOT TOSSED OVER A CLIFF!!!!

Unless you have the ability to see at right angles (like over the edge of a cliff) you have no idea if the animal could have survived.

[Rambunctious]

I don't think the puppy was already dead because the hind legs are not hanging loose. They seem to be balled up a little.

The puppy wouldn't be crying or struggling before the toss for two reasons. One the back of the neck isn't a sensitive spot on dogs... Older dogs will bite down in this area to carry puppies around sometimes. Second it is a spot dogs use to gain dominance over another dog. When my dog is playing with her friends this is one of her favorite take down moves.

Other than that I have no clue whether or not this is fake.

Starksy I know you want it to be fake but all of your arguments seem to be grasping at straws.

[JoinUsForCake]

All I have to say about this video, as an owner of a (now) 16 month old dog that was given to me when she was 8 weeks old, there is nothing I saw in that video that would make me doubt that was a live puppy.
Thank goodness a dog expert could chime in on this topic.

[AF Wifey]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone on here mentioning the older sounding dog barking persistently in the background.

[Paper Trail]

By Yoshiaki Nohara and Justin Arnold (http://www.heraldnet.com/article/20080304/NEWS01/583232837&news01ad=1)
Herald Writers

A Monroe Marine’s sister said her family is “living in a nightmare” as news spreads around the world linking the man to a video of what appears to be a U.S. Marine throwing a puppy off a desert cliff.

Death threats and graphic descriptions of physical violence continue to be directed at the Marine and his extended family as their personal information is being spread on the Internet.

That information on Tuesday continued to be posted on various blogs, social networking sites and online forums.

“They are getting angry about this puppy and the loss of this puppy, if this is real,” the sister said, in an interview with 710 KIRO newsradio’s Dori Monson. “On the same hand, they are also threatening human beings’ lives. They are putting this puppy’s life above human beings.”

Local law enforcement and national animal rights groups are calling for people to express their emotions in a civil way. The U.S. Marine Corps is investigating, attempting to determine whether the event shown in the video – dramatic though it is – is authentic.

“Obviously, the video is extremely disturbing,” said Inga Gibson, Washington state director for the Humane Society of the United States. “We will not condone any threats or violent behavior. We are solely seeking an investigation.”

Thousands of people have contacted the national group about the video, which started getting attention on Monday, Gibson said.

Marine Corps investigators have yet to identify who appears in the video or where or how it was created. They haven’t yet concluded whether the video is authentic or a hoax.

In either case, Marine Corps officials do not like what they have seen, condemning the video in a statement released Monday.

The Marine from Monroe is stationed at Marine Corps Base Hawaii, and that is where the investigation is being conducted. The Herald is not identifying the Monroe man because of many questions surrounding the video.

The blurry 17-second video makes it difficult to tell whether the puppy is a toy or real. It dangles motionless as someone dressed as a Marine holds it by the scruff of the neck. The man throws it into a gully and shrugs at the camera.

The video has gone viral, spreading through emails and multiple Web postings. It is making international headlines, appearing in news stories in Australia, Germany, on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and Wired Magazine.

There already have been more than 145,000 views on YouTube.com, where copies of the video are posted as quickly as they are being taken down. The site features dozens more video blogs offering individuals’ opinions to the video.

Many sites keep posting the Monroe family’s personal information, which exposes them to harassment and verbal abuse.

A deputy from the Snohomish County Sheriff’s Office visited the Monroe family on Monday, said Rebecca Hover, a sheriff’s spokeswoman.

The family has disconnected their phones following threatening calls.

“With the phones out, they shouldn’t have any more problems with harassing calls, so now we want to make sure they are safe in their home,” Hover said.

An investigation into any threats would be started if the family chooses to report them, Hover said.

“What it says for them is when they are so passionate about a single dog’s life, yet they are willing to – they say they are – willing to kill the entire family over something like this,” the Marine from Monroe’s sister told KIRO. Her brother has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq, and “none of them take that into account,” she said. “They just want to jump on him and immediately call him a mental maniac.”

The sister did not return a phone call from The Herald seeking comment.

In cyberspace, some posters were calling for restraint, saying that threatening the man’s family is wrong and pointless.

“Some of the comments made towards the innocent family members of this Marine by certain Web site owners, bloggers and their responders — and their actions — have bordered on the criminal in my opinion, and many have very frankly crossed well over that line. I saw one vile post advocating a sexual assault on this Marine’s mother,” wrote one poster, IrishRose, on the conservative commentator Michelle Malkin’s website .

“I am not defending what he did,” wrote toothygrim on Digg, “because it is inexcusable... but do we have any proof that the guy in the video is actually the guy whose name and address people are posting? I personally have no idea, but it would be really sad if someone else is getting all the hate mail and threatening phone calls and it wasn’t even them in the video. I didn’t see a name tag on the guy, but I don’t have the ability to enhance video etc.”

Ivan Orton, a King County prosecutor who has written books on cybercrime, also wrote Washington state’s Computer Trespass and Malicious Mischief statutes. They are considered some of the stiffest cyber stalking laws in the U.S.

The anonymity of the Internet makes people a lot ruder than they are in the real world, Orton said. While Washington created a cyberspace stalking law in 2004, the law is vague about what makes a cyberspace threat to be investigated as a crime.

“The problem is that we are dealing with the ever-changing Internet and technology with laws that may have been outdated,” Orton said. “We will never win that battle.”

This incident also serves as a warning to people about the need to be careful about how they put personal information out on the Internet, said Mike Andrew, vice president of training and forensic analyst for the CyberSecurity Institute. The Monroe firm trains law enforcement and military agencies and corporations on cyberspace security.

“People don’t realize that there is a lot of information about themselves that they don’t know of,” Andrew said.

Reporter Yoshiaki Nohara: 425-339-3029 or ynohara@heraldnet.com

[Paper Trail]

http://my.highschooljournalism.org/wa/monroe/mhs/article.cfm?eid=4390&aid=63532
http://my.highschooljournalism.org/data/news_images/mar.jpg

[sonorandesert]

Puppy Lover closed his Bibo account to the general public.
I'm convinced the video is sincere and the puppy was scared from the way it looks and is now dead.
May the US Marines throw the full weight of the UCMJ at this "person" (no Article 15 or Mast, that would be a cop out) and then let the Humane Society have their two cents worth.

[TVShootist]

I believe that video is fake.

My 4 year old niece has a toy dog that that looks identical to the dog in the video, everything from the color to the size. She got it from Toy's R Us and it is made to be life like, it looks real and even moves. At first glance, you would think it is a real dog. My guess is that the dog in the video is probably similar, if not the exact same toy my niece has. It's probably a toy they got donated to them to give to Iraqi kids, perhaps the toy was defunct or something.

[AF Wifey]

Shootist has a point - I have seen stuffed dogs that looked very real.

Guess we'll all have to wait to find out what the investigation uncovers AND STOP HARRASSING THE FAMILY.

[AF Wifey]

Maybe I missed it, but I don't recall anyone on here mentioning the older sounding dog barking persistently in the background.

Then again, the toy dog scenario doesn't explain the constant barking of the adult dog in the background, now does it?

[Starsky]

Dude, the dog GOT TOSSED OVER A CLIFF!!!!

Unless you have the ability to see at right angles (like over the edge of a cliff) you have no idea if the animal could have survived.
Dude. Dogs know enemies and foes. They have a good sense when it comes to detecting danger. For me to believe this story, this 'Marine' (anti-war wacko acting like a Marine) would have had to build a long term trust relationship for their to be no reaction when placed into a vulnerable position.

The video is a fake! It was designed to suck in those who want to believe US Marines are evil and America is Satan's lair.

Take a deep breath and be rational. The video is fake! Forget about your hate for President Bush. Forget about your opposition to the war. Forget about preconceived notions Moveon.org implanted into your heads. Look at the video as a rational human being. The video is fake!

If not, it is despicable. Don't get me wrong. But this video is a hoax. Without a doubt. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. But this video is a hoax. I am certain.

[Starsky]

Then again, the toy dog scenario doesn't explain the constant barking of the adult dog in the background, now does it?
Sound effects. The same bark can be downloaded for .99!

[AF Wifey]

Have you ever cared for an 8 week old puppy before?

[AF Wifey]

Starsky, how old are you?

[Starsky]

Have you ever cared for an 8 week old puppy before?

Yes. When dogs cry or feel danger, they react! They yelp and scream beyond the canned sounds you heard. This video is a fake. A fake.

[AF Wifey]

An 8 week old puppy is not a dog, it is for the most part an infant.

I'm just saying I wouldn't be too quick to judge if I were you (or me).

Follow the investigative process and report on that. It's what respectible reporters do.

[Pro]

But this video is a hoax. I am certain.

Why? Because you want it to be?

Wishful thinking isn't good enough.

[Jax]

Dude. Dogs know enemies and foes. They have a good sense when it comes to detecting danger. For me to believe this story, this 'Marine' (anti-war wacko acting like a Marine) would have had to build a long term trust relationship for their to be no reaction when placed into a vulnerable position.

The video is a fake! It was designed to suck in those who want to believe US Marines are evil and America is Satan's lair.

Take a deep breath and be rational. The video is fake! Forget about your hate for President Bush. Forget about your opposition to the war. Forget about preconceived notions Moveon.org implanted into your heads. Look at the video as a rational human being. The video is fake!

If not, it is despicable. Don't get me wrong. But this video is a hoax. Without a doubt. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. But this video is a hoax. I am certain.

Okay, we get it. You think it's a hoax, while most of the rest of us don't. This is what you call an impass.

Now, do you wanna prove that it's a hoax created by the left in an attempt to make the military and Iraq war look bad, or just keep looking like an idiot?

[Starsky]

Okay, we get it. You think it's a hoax, while most of the rest of us don't. This is what you call an impass.

Now, do you wanna prove that it's a hoax created by the left in an attempt to make the military and Iraq war look bad, or just keep looking like an idiot?
Why is it not plausible that the video is a fake?

[Fire Hydrogant]

If this is a hoax created by an anti-war whacko fringe group, why don't we see dreadlocks hanging out from under the marine's helmet?
-Okay, bad joke...

[Pro]

Why is it not plausible that the video is a fake?


It's plausible either way. I'll wait until the official investigation before passing judgement.

[Fire Hydrogant]

I can't believe that 3 different Marines who probably come from 3 unique backgrounds would, could or even have the opportunity to do something like this. I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to...
-BLA BLA BLA. Why do you keep repeating what you can't believe U.S. Marines would do? AF Wifey correctly pointed out that nobody said all military people are evil, but YOU seem to think that all Marines are so perfect and saintly that none of them could ever do anything wrong, not even 3 of them.

Here's my theory, although I'm NOT going to say that I'm 98% certain about it:
The the dog was already dead, and someone from a right-wing group made this video, and spread it around the internet with the plan that right-wing pundits would start latching onto the idea that a "left-wing fringe group" did it.

[Starsky]

-BLA BLA BLA. Why do you keep repeating what you can't believe U.S. Marines would do? AF Wifey correctly pointed out that nobody said all military people are evil, but YOU seem to think that all Marines are so perfect and saintly that none of them could ever do anything wrong, not even 3 of them.

Here's my theory, although I'm NOT going to say that I'm 98% certain about it:
The the dog was already dead, and someone from a right-wing group made this video, and spread it around the internet with the plan that right-wing pundits would start latching onto the idea that a "left-wing fringe group" did it.
I sense bitterness.

[Mr. Rugen]

Ah yes, the enlightened eloquence our children need teaching them in the classroom.

My bad.
That's a video of two incredible human beings.


If you're looking for eloquence on an internet message board you're going to need quite a search party.

by the way, that was kind of a strange place to launch an attack. I say so many more ridiculous things.

[Zero]

I believe that video is fake.

The video is real, what you mean is that you believe the dog the marine is holding is a fake and someone has inserted sound effects.

I disagree.

Why hasn't the Marine's family come out and said it was a hoax? They're being contacted and they're saying go away. The Marine Corps have certainly spoken to those involved. Why aren't the Marines saying it was just a hoax?

Because the bastard threw a puppy over a cliff.

[TVShootist]

The video is real, what you mean is that you believe the dog the marine is holding is a fake and someone has inserted sound effects.
.

It's not hard to do. There have been several other pieces of video taken by people within the Military that were proven to be fake, this one really is no different. If it wasn't for the fact that my niece has a toy dog that is identical to the one in the video, then I would be open to the possibility that it's hard to do.

Right now I'm just saying it's hard for me to believe that dog is real when my niece has a toy dog that looks exactly like the one in that video. Another point, the dog's legs in the video are balled up... yeah, so are the legs on my nieces toy dog.

In 5 minutes I could recreate that video clip using my niece's toy dog and sound effects of dog/dogs barking.

As for the barking dogs in the background, that really doesn't mean anything since dogs will bark at their own shadow. My neighbors dog bark all day long for no reason, it's what dogs do. So a dog barking in the background really means nothing.

[Zero]

It's not hard to do. In 5 minutes I could recreate that video clip using my niece's toy dog and sound effects of dog/dogs barking.

Show me.

[TVShootist]

Show me.

When I get home from work I'll get the toy dog from my niece and take some pics of it and post.

[Zero]

I eagerly await your realization that you cannot re-create the act in a convincing manner.

[Clever Login Name]

Why? Because you want it to be?

Wishful thinking isn't good enough.

Coming from a liberal, this is laughably hypocritical.

[Sigonfile]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxk_AB5gVeU

[halfpiperocks]

Guess we'll all have to wait to find out what the investigation uncovers AND STOP HARRASSING THE FAMILY.

I agree with you Wifey (wow that was hard) people should leave the family alone- it's not their fault that this guy did this. (if he did - I have not seen the video) But let me ask you something - did you defend the Dixie Chicks when 'deranged fans' sent them death threats over the comment about President Bush? I don't really recall any of the usual suspects around here coming to their defense. The Dixie Chicks exercised the right to say how they felt, hardly a crime, and the morons who came out in droves, yeah some harmlessly had protests to destroy their music (stupid but hey whatever gets you up in the morning) BUT then some idiots took it to a new level, and sent death threats to the singers and their families. I am hardly a fan of the Dixie Chicks, but DEATH THREATS over what they said about the President... are you kidding me? Anyway, I agree people should leave the family of this Marine alone. However if he did hurt the puppy, he should pay for that and then realize that his actions cause some people (mostly in other countries) to hate us and our military even more than they do right now. (Because no matter if this is real or not - I don't anyone here is saying that all Marines are *ssholes because of what this one guy did)

[Fire Hydrogant]

I sense bitterness.

I'm bitter about people like you looking at a video like this and automatically trying to tie it to Moveon.org. because as others here have pointed out, you want that to be the case. You're so enamored of the Marines that you "can't believe" that any Marine would do such a thing.

[Fire Hydrogant]

Exaclty, wouldn't you think you would hear a gasp, sound of shock or even a mild rebuke?...He would have reacted while he was shooting the video...
There WAS a mild rebuke. We heard a somewhat tepid "that was mean, Motari." If it's real, the mildness of the response was probably because they were in a war zone, where they'd seen all sorts of crazy things, and weren't quite sure what to think of what Motari had just done. There's no sure guarantee that any of the other Marines in that group would have immediately reacted while the camera was still rolling. If they did, it's possible they got into a shouting match with him AFTER they stopped rolling tape.

[HushHush]

To me the puppy still looks dead when he's holding it:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c93/persiplz/puppy.jpg

either that - or its one of those realistic toys. His front legs don't move out of position at all during the tape - and it doesn't appear the eyes ever open.

We haven't heard the Marine's side - nor the two others involved in the film. Until then I'll refrain from passing judgment.

[!]

Why do people doing bad, stupid, or illegal things insist on recording them?

See, once upon a time, people kept such things amongst themselves, i.e., secret. That way, it'd be harder to get caught and punished.

Now, however, they either (a) want to get caught and punished, or (b) assume no one will ever see the video, despite the fact that such tape is ALWAYS posted on YouTube, and record their acts.

I don't get it.

[MyracleMan]

Dude. Dogs know enemies and foes. They have a good sense when it comes to detecting danger. For me to believe this story, this 'Marine' (anti-war wacko acting like a Marine) would have had to build a long term trust relationship for their to be no reaction when placed into a vulnerable position.

The video is a fake! It was designed to suck in those who want to believe US Marines are evil and America is Satan's lair.

Take a deep breath and be rational. The video is fake! Forget about your hate for President Bush. Forget about your opposition to the war. Forget about preconceived notions Moveon.org implanted into your heads. Look at the video as a rational human being. The video is fake!

If not, it is despicable. Don't get me wrong. But this video is a hoax. Without a doubt. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. But this video is a hoax. I am certain.


Okay, it's obvious you have no idea who you're talking to... and it's obvious you've never had an 8-week old puppy. Their natural instinct when grabbed by the nape of the neck like their mother would, is to go limp and do nothing. It's perfectly rational that this dog would not move, not flinch, while being handled like a rag doll. Our one-year old mutt was about that size when she came to us. She was pulled from the mouth of a rottweiler by one of my wife's co-workers and brought to us for care. She had a rough first 6-8 weeks of life, and if you touched her in a way that she felt was remotely threatening, she'd start growling, but you could pick her up just like that, and she wouldn't move a muscle, wouldn't utter a sound. That's just the way pups are.

Also, it's obvious you have no idea who you're talking to. I voted for BUsh not once, but twice. I was all for the war... until I found out the intelligence used to get us there was faulty. I still think the idea behind the invasion of Afghanistan was sound... but the way the present military action has been carried out leaves much to be desired. And I have never even visited Moveon.org; I try to stay as far away from political propaganda as possible, both to the right and to the left.

As I stated before; I hope the video is fake, I really do. I'm just so jaded, and know the evil men are capable of, that nothing they do to man or beast surprises me any more. Upsets me, enrages me, but doesn't surprise me.

Could it be fake? Sure. Could it have been staged by some extremist group trying to make the military look bad? Sure. But remember the first rule of any investigation: the simplest answer is usally the correct one.

[cinehead]

The video is a fake! It was designed to suck in those who want to believe US Marines are evil and America is Satan's lair.

Take a deep breath and be rational. The video is fake! Forget about your hate for President Bush. Forget about your opposition to the war. Forget about preconceived notions Moveon.org implanted into your heads. Look at the video as a rational human being. The video is fake!

If not, it is despicable. Don't get me wrong. But this video is a hoax. Without a doubt. If I am wrong, I will be the first to admit it. But this video is a hoax. I am certain.

Oh, I get it. It's all a big conspiracy.

Hey, I think you dropped your hat....

http://johnxlewis.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/06/tin_foil_hat.jpg

[Spike]

See, once upon a time, people kept such things amongst themselves, i.e., secret. That way, it'd be harder to get caught and punished.

No they didn't. They blabbed to their friends and boasted in bars.

The only difference between now and "once upon a time" is that now we have video cameras everywhere, including in our cellphones, making it much easier to record everything. If people had had cheap video "once upon a time," they would have recorded their stupidity then, too.

[writer2]

Are the puppy's front legs tied together? Looks like it in the still photos.

[CKMD]

Where's all the anger when the pound euthanizes dogs that no one wants?

While what the Marine did appears to be despicable, if it is real, we as a society kill dogs by the thousands everyday because they have aren't wanted because people don't spade or neuter.

Bob Barker is spinning in his grave!!!!

[TVShootist]

Bob Barker is spinning in his grave!!!!

No he's not, Bob Barker is still alive.

[CKMD]

No he's not, Bob Barker is still alive.
That's what you think.

[Starsky]

That's what you think.
LMAO!

[Pro]

Coming from a liberal, this is laughably hypocritical.

Care to explain why?

Or is that just a random snipe, like Produce is so famous for?

[HushHush]

Are the puppy's front legs tied together? Looks like it in the still photos.

No - the first photo of the puppy has the strap from the helmet of one of the other Marines infringing. I guess the way I cropped the photos makes the strap look like binding - but no. From what I could see the legs are not tied together.

Now THIS is what an 8-week old puppy is supposed to look like:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c93/persiplz/montage2.jpg

Well ... he was really 7 weeks when we adopted him. He had a hernia operation and was taken away from his mom a week early. Hard to believe he'll be 11 years old this May.

[MyracleMan]

Where's all the anger when the pound euthanizes dogs that no one wants?

While what the Marine did appears to be despicable, if it is real, we as a society kill dogs by the thousands everyday because they have aren't wanted because people don't spade or neuter.

Bob Barker is spinning in his grave!!!!

People not spaying or neutering their pets is a far cry from physically picking up an animal not capable of defending itself and being hateful and malicious enough to throw it over a cliff.

While both lead inevitably to the same conclusion, i.e. dead animals, the means is totally different. Disposing of unwanted animals in a humane fashion (euthanization) is totally different. While those animals that end up in the shelter at least have a chance to be adopted, this young marine didn't give that puppy a chance.

Is int wrong that the animals have to die in the shelter? Yes. If I could, I'd take every single one of them home. But to maliciously kill a puppy like this... it's just wrong.

[TTBoy]

With the Military Policy of not allowing soldiers take, care, and maintain pets
during combat operations? These soldiers may have been ordered to disgard the dog to comply with general orders.

I found out about this when there was a story told on the local news how soldiers were helped thru tough times by the friendships they nurtured thru the adoption of a stray puppy without care.

In the story that was told, soldiers gave up their own MRE's to feed the puppy, which became the unofficial unit mascot. Well? In a story that could have almost only been written for the movies, the primary care giving soldier was killed in action.

The only connection the surviving family had was a picture of their son with his buddy friend the dog, and the stories of how important the pup was. I am not sure of who made the arrangements? But the unit was going to Ship that Dog back to the Soldier's Family. Not as a replacement for their loss, but because of the close connection to their Son, and his Love.

Quite a touching Story despite the tragedy. I think several other Soldiers have looked the other way to nurture such kindred relationships because they are mired in a war with no clear goals or decisive conclusion. Can you blame them for wanting to connect to some type of warmth or reality to call their own?

[Starsky]

Dude, the dog GOT TOSSED OVER A CLIFF!!!!

Unless you have the ability to see at right angles (like over the edge of a cliff) you have no idea if the animal could have survived.
Dude, the dog GOT TOSSED OVER A CLIFF AND WE STILL HEARD AN AUDIBLE THUD OF IT LANDING!!!!

Think!

[cinehead]

Dude, the dog GOT TOSSED OVER A CLIFF AND WE STILL HEARD AN AUDIBLE THUD OF IT LANDING!!!!

Think!


It's impossible to hear things land after they fall off a cliff?

[Starsky]

It's impossible to hear things land after they fall off a cliff?
a 5 pound dog, thrown off a cliff to be never seen before...yes. Watch the video again. Listening to the yelping that remained constant in volume. Listen for the thud and keep your mind open. Look at how the dog didn't struggle at all. This video is a sham.

[MyracleMan]

I hope so, but I fear not.

[neodeity]

Wow, I've just read all this - I've no interest in watching the video, real or fake - and I've come to a couple of conclusions I’m compelled to share. Starsky is probably Grumpy who was probably Brownie who was and still is an asshat. Starsky's exposure to Marines must be limited to ad nauseam viewings of "A Few Good Men." I know something of Marines. I was raised by one and by the bases, camps, or depots that aided in that endeavor; they were all out of villages. There is a mindset that the Marine Corps, as an organization, is trying to shape within the minds of their Marines. Drilling into a Marine's head that they are to follow orders without question, without blinking, and without thinking of the consequence (to their victims or themselves) goes hand-in-hand with instilling the attitude that they are not just killers but that they are stone cold-100% badass-cold blooded-cut your heart out and smile while you bleed-Rambo is a *****-I might be a sociopath-killing machines. Mostly as a mindset needed to survive and succeed on the battle field (I suspect it may also help cope with the peace as well); it can also be a mindset that some are tempted to test. I don't want to see a puppy tossed over a cliff, whether real or fake, enough to check out the video, but to dismiss it solely upon your belief that Marines wouldn't act that way is being very naive. To further insist that it's part of some grand conspiracy to make the military look bad is being very paranoid; but to insinuate that condemnation of an individual and their individual actions automatically assumes condemnation and contempt for his profession or the organization which employs him is idiotic, irrational and insulting. So there.

[Starsky]

Wow, I've just read all this - I've no interest in watching the video, real or fake - and I've come to a couple of conclusions I’m compelled to share. Starsky is probably Grumpy who was probably Brownie who was and still is an asshat. Starsky's exposure to Marines must be limited to ad nauseam viewings of "A Few Good Men." I know something of Marines. I was raised by one and by the bases, camps, or depots that aided in that endeavor; they were all out of villages. There is a mindset that the Marine Corps, as an organization, is trying to shape within the minds of their Marines. Drilling into a Marine's head that they are to follow orders without question, without blinking, and without thinking of the consequence (to their victims or themselves) goes hand-in-hand with instilling the attitude that they are not just killers but that they are stone cold-100% badass-cold blooded-cut your heart out and smile while you bleed-Rambo is a *****-I might be a sociopath-killing machines. Mostly as a mindset needed to survive and succeed on the battle field (I suspect it may also help cope with the peace as well); it can also be a mindset that some are tempted to test. I don't want to see a puppy tossed over a cliff, whether real or fake, enough to check out the video, but to dismiss it solely upon your belief that Marines wouldn't act that way is being very naive. To further insist that it's part of some grand conspiracy to make the military look bad is being very paranoid; but to insinuate that condemnation of an individual and their individual actions automatically assumes condemnation and contempt for his profession or the organization which employs him is idiotic, irrational and insulting. So there.
Yes, because the media would never capitalize on such an event to demonize the military or war.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4387128&page=1

[cinehead]

a 5 pound dog, thrown off a cliff to be never seen before...yes. Watch the video again. Listening to the yelping that remained constant in volume. Listen for the thud and keep your mind open. Look at how the dog didn't struggle at all. This video is a sham.


I'm not sure if the video is real or not, my problem is more with your reasoning.

[neodeity]

Yes, because the media would never capitalize on such an event to demonize the military or war.

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Health/story?id=4387128&page=1

You assume an agenda to cope with news which reflects badly upon your personal "sacred cow" institutions. Nothing in the article you linked even remotely blamed or damned the Marines or the military, it merely tried to make sense of the Marine's possible cruelty. One of the possible reasons given in the article somewhat reinforced what I had written a couple posts ago. This Marine has made himself look bad while tarnishing the image of the Corps; wanting to get to the truth (assuming you can handle it) as to the video's validity and/or the Marine's motivation is a natural and normal reaction - it does not rise to "witch-hunt" status.

[Stupid]

I think you're right, neodeity.

Starsky is most likely the latest incarnation of Brownie.

Explains why he said he didn't like Obama because he doesn't wear a flag pin on his lapel.

[Starsky]

I think you're right, neodeity.

Starsky is most likely the latest incarnation of Brownie.

Explains why he said he didn't like Obama because he doesn't wear a flag pin on his lapel.
Who said I don't like Obama?

Now you're just making stuff up...all because you are too gulliable to realize this video is fake.

[Stupid]

My apologies, here is your actual quote:

"I am far from impressed by the man because he will not wear an American flag on his lapel."

I took that to mean you were not a fan of Obama. I must have jumped to that conclusion prematurely.

As for the subject at hand, I'll reserve judgment until it's determined if the video is real or not.

But either way, the act itself is despicable (real or fake).

[CKMD]

Is int wrong that the animals have to die in the shelter? Yes. If I could, I'd take every single one of them home. But to maliciously kill a puppy like this... it's just wrong.

I agree with you... I was just pointing out that we still kill animals daily. Whether it's malicious makes no difference.

[Starsky]

My apologies, here is your actual quote:

"I am far from impressed by the man because he will not wear an American flag on his lapel."

I took that to mean you were not a fan of Obama. I must have jumped to that conclusion prematurely.

As for the subject at hand, I'll reserve judgment until it's determined if the video is real or not.

But either way, the act itself is despicable (real or fake).
Thank you for admitting to your effort to unduely harm my good name by attributing falsehoods and misrepresentations to my good and common commentary on current events. That takes a certain level of integrity.

Now, all you have to do is admit that you are beginning to believe this video is fake (I notice that you are softening your conviction that the tape is authentic). It is okay to agree with me. It will only make you right.

















;)

[writer2]

Thank you for admitting to your effort to unduely harm my good name by attributing falsehoods and misrepresentations to my good and common commentary on current events. That takes a certain level of integrity.

Now, all you have to do is admit that you are beginning to believe this video is fake (I notice that you are softening your conviction that the tape is authentic). It is okay to agree with me. It will only make you right.



;)

Yup, Brownie is back.

[Jane Craig]

Yep. "Unduely" was the giveaway.

[Stupid]

Impressive that he lasted almost 30 posts before giving himself away.

[Starsky]

I don't know about 'Brownie?', but I do know this video is a fake. It is obvious. It is quite funny that all you can do is claim I am a Brownie instead of talking about how obvious it is that this video is fake.

Nice try, but the fact remains, you people need to quit believing everything you see on the internet. First it was this hoax, then you guys fell hook, line and sinker with the story about Dirty Dancing guy.

I can understand the ladies not being able to look too far past their emotions to see the obvious truth, but I am concerned about the lads who are so outraged over a fake dog being thrown off a cliff in a fake video.

No wonder Bush was able to dupe you people into Iraq. You are gulliable and cannot think beyond your own emotions.

[Jane Craig]

Does this make us unduely gulliable?

[Stupid]

Thinks women are lesser humans... yup, the only thing left for him to say is something about how Canada is evil.

[Starsky]

Well, the Canadians are messing with the American political process. Obama and Steven Harper in cahoots?

[Fire Hydrogant]

a 5 pound dog, thrown off a cliff to be never seen before...yes. Watch the video again. Listening to the yelping that remained constant in volume. Listen for the thud and keep your mind open. Look at how the dog didn't struggle at all. This video is a sham.

I disagree with your perception that the yelping remains constant. Sounded to me like it faded out as it got farther away, and the thud wasn't really that loud. I also say you can't tell one way or another whether the dog struggled, because the force of being thrown like that caused its body to do about 5 or 6 somersaults as it was flying through the air.

And quit insinuating that the rest of us are not open-minded. You're the one who can't seem to fathom the notion that a trained U.S. Marine would ever do such a thing. You're the one who needs to keep his mind open.

[Starsky]

I disagree with your perception that the yelping remains constant. Sounded to me like it faded out as it got farther away, and the thud wasn't really that loud. I also say you can't tell one way or another whether the dog struggled, because the force of being thrown like that caused its body to do about 5 or 6 somersaults as it was flying through the air.
A dog would prevent itself from doing so many summersaults. As would you or any other being with a brain and bodily functions...unless it were dead or a stuffed animal.

And quit insinuating that the rest of us are not open-minded. You're the one who can't seem to fathom the notion that a trained U.S. Marine would ever do such a thing. You're the one who needs to keep his mind open.
Who was insinuating.

Nonetheless, I seem to have gotten off on the wrong foot here. I guess I expected a little more from reporters and producers (if any of you truly are). We questioned the Rodney King video tape. We question every statement given by the Bush Administration. We question the veracity of everything; yet you accept an obviously fake video on the internet.

Like I said, no wonder we are at war in Iraq. No one searches for the truth anymore. No one worries about investigating the truth because it takes away from a 2 minute pack about Anna Nicole Smith and it is easier to indict the US Military than to seek the obvious truth. Nice job.

Whatever happened to real news people?

[Fire Hydrogant]

Now THIS is what an 8-week old puppy is supposed to look like:
http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c93/persiplz/montage2.jpg


Awwe, that's so cuuute...

Hey, forget the puppy throwing debate, let's just show off our pets. Here I go:

This is my dog. -No, actually it's a wolf at the zoo:
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/firehydrogant/dog/th_Picture063.jpg

Here's my cat sleeping in the towel closet:
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/firehydrogant/dog/th_kramercloset1.jpg

Here's my parents' goldfish:
http://s4.photobucket.com/albums/y116/firehydrogant/dog/th_aug06stevevisitcf1010.jpg
I'm 98% certain that the goldfish is already dead, and that it was killed by Moveon.org or PETA or some other left wing fringe group...

Sorry, I think I've had one too many tequilas tonight.

[Fire Hydrogant]

A dog would prevent itself from doing so many summersaults. As would you or any other being with a brain and bodily functions...unless it were dead or a stuffed animal.
Huh? We're talking about a human weighing probably 200 lbs, picking up and throwing an animal that probably weighs about 6 lbs. In order to put myself in the dog's place for the purposes of your ridiculous analogy, I guess I might compare that to myself being picked up and tossed 70 yards by King Kong. I doubt that I would be able to prevent my body from doing somersaults.


Who was insinuating.

You were.
From your third post: "I can't believe that 3 different Marines who probably come from 3 unique backgrounds would, could or even have the opportunity to do something like this. I can't believe 3 Marines would be stupid enough to video tape the effort and post it online considering the hate for anything military as evidenced in Berkeley, CA."

We questioned the Rodney King video tape. We question every statement given by the Bush Administration. We question the veracity of everything; yet you accept an obviously fake video on the internet.


I do not accept it. I just don't agree with your perception that it's "obviously fake." It's NOT obvious. Everything that people are saying in this thread about the possibility that the dog could be dead, or stuffed, etc... could be true, but nothing you or anyone else brought up would make me "98% certain" either way.

[Stupid]

Fire Hydrogant, "Starsky" is a reincarnation of a known troll. There is no point in arguing with him. He's a legend in his own mind.

[Starsky]

Huh? We're talking about a human weighing probably 200 lbs, picking up and throwing an animal that probably weighs about 6 lbs. In order to put myself in the dog's place for the purposes of your ridiculous analogy, I guess I might compare that to myself being picked up and tossed 70 yards by King Kong. I doubt that I would be able to prevent my body from doing somersaults.
Try jumping off a building to further understand my point.


I do not accept it. I just don't agree with your perception that it's "obviously fake." It's NOT obvious. Everything that people are saying in this thread about the possibility that the dog could be dead, or stuffed, etc... could be true, but nothing you or anyone else brought up would make me "98% certain" either way.
Yes, because you want to give the benefit of the doubt to the anti-military and humane society folks. Tell the animal rights terrorists that Michael Vick is in jail and their 15 minutes of attention is over.

[HushHush]

Hey, forget the puppy throwing debate, let's just show off our pets.

What?! :huh2:

I wasn't trying to change the subject .... :whistle:

[Starsky]

Fire Hydrogant, "Starsky" is a reincarnation of a known troll. There is no point in arguing with him. He's a legend in his own mind.
While I am not Brownie, I do know of him. Now I know why he said I shouldn't bring up his name. Surprising, he is a nice guy. A little too conservative for my taste, but a nice guy overall.

[Mayhem]

I don't think the dog is a real dog, or if it is real, it was already dead. I think the evidence lies in the flight of the dog. Throughout the start, the legs never move. When the dog is tossed, it goes end over end multiple times and the legs remain rigid. Any animal of any age that I have ever seen moving through the air will move it's legs and body in an attempt to at least right itself. The puppy never moves a muscle throughout the whole ordeal.

The barking could easily be another dog off camera barking... dogs do that.

[Fire Hydrogant]

Try jumping off a building to further understand my point.
The dog didn't jump off anything. He was tossed. -So your point is irrelevant.

[TVShootist]

Odd. The way some of you are getting so defensive towards someone who calls the video fake, it seems to me as if you want the video to be real and that a innocent puppy was abused and killed. It's just odd how pissed some of you are getting over the possibility that the video might be fake.

I don't know if the video is real or not, I know that the dog looks much like a toy dog that my niece owns. But then again, I wasn't there and neither were any of you. I don't know if it's real, you don't know if it's real. I hope it's not real, and until it's proven one way or another I'm going to believe that it's not real. Consider me in denial, but I don't want to sit here thinking that someone who is suppose to be protecting our freedom, fighting for our country is over there throwing puppies off cliffs. I just don't.

It just seems odd that some of you are getting so pissed off over the fact that someone is calling the video fake, it's as though you want it to be real and that the idea someone faked it is pissing you off. I don't get it.

Instead of debating if it's real or not, how about we all just say that we don't know. Unless you were physically there and witnessed the whole thing and knew what went on, you have no idea if that's real or not. I don't know either. I'll be the first to say I don't know. I will simply wait until the Marine concludes it's investigation.

In the mean time, I will believe that the video is fake.. not because I have any evidence that it's fake, but because I have a heart and I don't want to believe that the video is real. Maybe some of you get enjoyment watching that video thinking it's real, I don't.

[Starsky]

Odd. The way some of you are getting so defensive towards someone who calls the video fake, it seems to me as if you want the video to be real and that a innocent puppy was abused and killed. It's just odd how pissed some of you are getting over the possibility that the video might be fake.

I don't know if the video is real or not, I know that the dog looks much like a toy dog that my niece owns. But then again, I wasn't there and neither were any of you. I don't know if it's real, you don't know if it's real. I hope it's not real, and until it's proven one way or another I'm going to believe that it's not real. Consider me in denial, but I don't want to sit here thinking that someone who is suppose to be protecting our freedom, fighting for our country is over there throwing puppies off cliffs. I just don't.

It just seems odd that some of you are getting so pissed off over the fact that someone is calling the video fake, it's as though you want it to be real and that the idea someone faked it is pissing you off. I don't get it.

Instead of debating if it's real or not, how about we all just say that we don't know. Unless you were physically there and witnessed the whole thing and knew what went on, you have no idea if that's real or not. I don't know either. I'll be the first to say I don't know. I will simply wait until the Marine concludes it's investigation.

In the mean time, I will believe that the video is fake.. not because I have any evidence that it's fake, but because I have a heart and I don't want to believe that the video is real. Maybe some of you get enjoyment watching that video thinking it's real, I don't.
Very well put. I don't like putting too much milk in black coffee, but I think you covered that quite well.

[Fire Hydrogant]

What?! :huh2:

I wasn't trying to change the subject .... :whistle:

I know you weren't. I just felt the urge to post some pictures of animals. Animals rule.

[Pro]

I will believe that the video is fake.. not because I have any evidence that it's fake, but because I have a heart and I don't want to believe that the video is real.

At least you admit it is wishful thinking, and nothing more.

I have no idea if it is authentic or not. And neither do any of you.

[HushHush]

I know you weren't. I just felt the urge to post some pictures of animals. Animals rule.

I agree - especially the ones that live with me :)

[Zero]

Odd. The way some of you are getting so defensive towards someone who calls the video fake, it seems to me as if you want the video to be real and that a innocent puppy was abused and killed. It's just odd how pissed some of you are getting over the possibility that the video might be fake.

That's funny, because the exact same argument can be made against those who are making the ridiculous claim that the video is a fake. It's as if you can't believe someone could be this unfeeling and cruel. Well, guess what? They can. And the proof is right there in the video.

It's like the old Richard Pryor joke when he denies the truth even after his girlfriend catches him in bed with another woman: Who are you going to believe, me or your lying eyes?

Some people are willing to go to silly extremes in attempting to explain away the truth. It's not a doll. It's not a sound effect laden spoof. The puppy wasn't already dead when these ignorant *******s decided to throw it over a gully for fun. It's not some terrorist with CGI wizard skills trying to embarrass the military. I would think Haditha and Abu Gharib might have done that already.

It's pretty obvious to me that some people will ignore the facts for as long as they can and stick with a comfortable story. After all, isn't that exactly why we went to Iraq with the full approval of America in the first place?

[CKMD]

While I am not Brownie, I do know of him. Now I know why he said I shouldn't bring up his name. Surprising, he is a nice guy. A little too conservative for my taste, but a nice guy overall.

DING! Another dead giveaway.
Brownie has no friends...you are he as he is you as you are a troll as we are all together....

[TVShootist]

It's pretty obvious to me that some people will ignore the facts for as long as ?

Facts, what facts? All we have is a video. There is no facts, you have opinions based on your own experiences with dogs, those aren't facts. The fact is, we have no facts.

I don't know if it's fake anymore than you know if it's real, there are no facts about it. This is why the Marines is conducting its investigation to determine what the facts are and if the video is real or not.

Unless you were physically there, there are no facts. So don't sit there trying to claim that your opinions are based on facts when in fact they aren't, they are based on what YOU think, what you think aren't facts.

[Paper Trail]

By Yoshiaki Nohara and Justin Arnold (http://heraldnet.com/article/20080305/NEWS01/303268761/-1/news01)
Herald Writers

A Monroe Marine's sister said her family is "living in a nightmare" as news spreads around the world linking the man to a video of what appears to be a U.S. Marine throwing a puppy off a desert cliff.

Death threats and graphic descriptions of physical violence continue to be directed at the Marine and his extended family as their personal information is being spread on the Internet.

That information on Tuesday continued to be posted on various blogs, social networking sites and online forums.

"They are getting angry about this puppy and the loss of this puppy, if this is real," the sister said in an interview with KIRO (710-AM) radio talk-show host Dori Monson. "On the same hand, they are also threatening human beings' lives. They are putting this puppy's life above human beings."

Local law enforcement and national animal rights groups are calling for people to express their emotions in a civil way. The U.S. Marine Corps is investigating, attempting to determine whether the event shown in the video -- dramatic though it is -- is authentic.

"Obviously, the video is extremely disturbing," said Inga Gibson, Washington state director for the Humane Society of the United States. "We will not condone any threats or violent behavior. We are solely seeking an investigation."

Thousands of people have contacted the national group about the video, which started getting attention on Monday, Gibson said.

Marine Corps investigators have yet to identify who appears in the video or where or how it was created. They haven't yet concluded whether the video is authentic or a hoax.

In either case, Marine Corps officials do not like what they have seen, condemning the video in a statement released Monday.

The Marine from Monroe is stationed at Marine Corps Base Hawaii, and that is where the investigation is being conducted. The Herald is not identifying the Monroe man because of many questions surrounding the video.

"I understand people's outrage," Maj. Chris Perrine, a spokesman at the Kaneohe Bay Marine Corps base in Hawaii, told The Honolulu Advertiser on Tuesday. The Monroe Marine is at the base. "I think every Marine is outraged by the video, and what I would do is encourage people to support our Constitutional process and treat people as innocent till proven guilty and let the process run its course."

The blurry 17-second video makes it difficult to tell whether the puppy is a toy or real. It dangles motionless as someone dressed as a Marine holds it by the scruff of the neck. The man throws it into a gully and shrugs at the camera.

The video has gone viral, spreading through e-mails and multiple Web postings. It is making international headlines, appearing in news stories in Australia and Germany and on CNN, Fox News, MSNBC and Wired magazine's Web site.

The video already has been viewed more than 145,000 times on YouTube.com, where copies of the video are posted as quickly as they are taken down. The site features dozens more video blogs offering individuals' opinions to the video.

Many sites keep posting the Monroe family's personal information, which exposes them to harassment and verbal abuse.

A deputy from the Snohomish County Sheriff's Office visited the Monroe family on Monday, said Rebecca Hover, a sheriff's spokeswoman.

The family has disconnected their phones following threatening calls.

"With the phones out, they shouldn't have any more problems with harassing calls, so now we want to make sure they are safe in their home," Hover said.

An investigation into any threats would be started if the family chooses to report them, Hover said.

"What it says for them is when they are so passionate about a single dog's life, yet they are willing to -- they say they are -- willing to kill the entire family over something like this," the sister of the Marine from Monroe told KIRO. Her brother has served his country in Afghanistan and Iraq and "none of them take that into account," she said. "They just want to jump on him and immediately call him a mental maniac."

The sister did not return a phone call from The Herald seeking comment.

In cyberspace, some posters were calling for restraint, saying that threatening the man's family is wrong and pointless.

"Some of the comments made toward the innocent family members of this Marine by certain Web site owners, bloggers and their responders -- and their actions -- have bordered on the criminal in my opinion, and many have very frankly crossed well over that line. I saw one vile post advocating a sexual assault on this Marine's mother," wrote one poster, IrishRose, on the conservative commentator Michelle Malkin's Web site.

"I am not defending what he did," wrote toothygrim on Digg, "because it is inexcusable. ... but do we have any proof that the guy in the video is actually the guy whose name and address people are posting? I personally have no idea, but it would be really sad if someone else is getting all the hate mail and threatening phone calls and it wasn't even them in the video. I didn't see a name tag on the guy, but I don't have the ability to enhance video etc."

Ivan Orton, a King County prosecutor who has written books on cybercrime, also wrote Washington state's statutes on computer trespass and malicious mischief. They are considered some of the stiffest cyberstalking laws in the United States.

The anonymity of the Internet makes people a lot ruder than they are in the real world, Orton said. While Washington created a cyberspace stalking law in 2004, the law is vague about what makes a cyberspace threat worthy of criminal investigation.

"The problem is that we are dealing with the ever-changing Internet and technology with laws that may have been outdated," Orton said. "We will never win that battle."

This incident also serves as a warning to people about the need to be careful about how they put personal information out on the Internet, said Mike Andrew, vice president of training and forensic analyst for the CyberSecurity Institute. The Monroe firm trains law enforcement and military agencies and corporations on cyberspace security.

"People don't realize that there is a lot of information about themselves that they don't know of," Andrew said.

Reporter Yoshiaki Nohara: 425-339-3029 or ynohara@heraldnet.com.

[Zero]

Facts, what facts? All we have is a video.

Now you're just being ignorant.

There is visual evidence.

Where's the video you promised would be so easy to make?

[TVShootist]

Now you're just being ignorant.

There is visual evidence.

Where's the video you promised would be so easy to make?

Visual evidence, give me a break. Again, it's your opinion... let me repeat that, it's your OPINION. There is nothing about that which is facts. What you THINK is not evidence of anything. Be a man and say you don't know, because you don't. There is no way you could or would know because a). you weren't there and b). you aren't involved with the investigation being conducted by the Marines.

[Zero]

Visual evidence, give me a break. Again, it's your opinion... let me repeat that, it's your OPINION.

It is an irrefutable fact that visual evidence exists. That's not an opinion.

If David Motari is claiming the video is a hoax, the Marines would have released that information right away. If David Motari is claiming the video is a joke, his family would know and would release that information to the media.

It's a fact that no one other than fools like yourself are claiming the video to be something other than what it obviously purports to be: an ******* throwing a live puppy over the edge of a gully.

[Rambunctious]

Odd.

It just seems odd that some of you are getting so pissed off over the fact that someone is calling the video fake, it's as though you want it to be real and that the idea someone faked it is pissing you off. I don't get it.

Instead of debating if it's real or not, how about we all just say that we don't know. Unless you were physically there and witnessed the whole thing and knew what went on, you have no idea if that's real or not. I don't know either. I'll be the first to say I don't know. I will simply wait until the Marine concludes it's investigation.

In the mean time, I will believe that the video is fake.. not because I have any evidence that it's fake, but because I have a heart and I don't want to believe that the video is real. Maybe some of you get enjoyment watching that video thinking it's real, I don't.


If you read all of the posts again you will see there are only two people that are certain their views are right. Zero thinks it's real and Starsky thinks it's fake. Much like politics these two would be the extreme ends.

The debates from others have been mainly focused on the lack of proof either have used to back their conclusions. They are trying to state facts... when as you pointed out no one knows for sure right now.

Notice how when you talked about the toy dog you have at home no one but Zero attacked your theory. This is because you were suggesting it as a possibility and not stating it as fact. It is possible.

I'm sure no one on this forum wants it to be real... but most aren't going to close their eyes and mind to simple try and wish it away.

IMHO

[Zero]

I'm sure no one on this forum wants it to be real... but most aren't going to close their eyes and mind to simple try and wish it away.


Oh, I think there are more than a few who are trying to convince themselves, in the face of overwhelming factual information to the contrary, that they are not indeed seeing what they are in fact seeing.

[MyracleMan]

Fire Hydrogant, "Starsky" is a reincarnation of a known troll. There is no point in arguing with him. He's a legend in his own mind.

That he is... kinda reminds me of a Mr. Fast Guy/Sir Speedy reincarnation, with just a touch of the far right neo-conservatism of Brownie.

I'm done with this thread, beacuse guys like Starsky never let the facts get in the way of a good argument.

I'll reservemy judgement for when this video is thoroughly analyzed, and we know whether it's real or fake.

I hope it's fake, but I fear it's real.

[Speed Racer]

That he is... kinda reminds me of a Mr. Fast Guy/Sir Speedy reincarnation.

No, Sir Speedy was much more intelligent and demanding of the truth. He held others accountable for their foolish behavior.

We should do well to see his kind return.

[TVShootist]

It is an irrefutable fact that visual evidence exists. That's not an opinion.

If David Motari is claiming the video is a hoax, the Marines would have released that information right away. If David Motari is claiming the video is a joke, his family would know and would release that information to the media.

It's a fact that no one other than fools like yourself are claiming the video to be something other than what it obviously purports to be: an ******* throwing a live puppy over the edge of a gully.

Yes, Zero, it is an opinion. How can something you see on video be irrefutable fact? That is impossible, if that were the case then there would be no reason for the Marine to waste their time and money to conduct an investigation to determine if the video is real or not. Based on your logic, then every single ghost video that exist on youtube must be real.. afterall, it's on video so it has to be real.. right? How about all the UFO video's, you must believe those are real too since they're on video... after all it must be irrefutable fact since it is on video.

The fact that we have not had any updates since means nothing, and whatever the outcome is.. so be it. Until it is proven one way or another, I can't say if that video is real or fake and neither can you, and if you consider a single piece of blurry video to be fact, then you are an idiot.

[Zero]

How can something you see on video be irrefutable fact?

Well, see if you can wrap your tiny brain around this FACT: The camera works as an eyewitness account to visually document the event.

That's what we're seeing. But you foolishly insist, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that what you're seeing didn't really happen.

Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes?

The Marines are no doubt interviewing those involved and checking on/debunking any untrue stories they may be telling.

Still waiting for that easy to manufature recreation you promised. But I doubt that you'll follow through.

[TVShootist]

Well, see if you can wrap your tiny brain around this FACT: The camera works as an eyewitness account to visually document the event.

That's what we're seeing. But you foolishly insist, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that what you're seeing didn't really happen.

Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes?

The Marines are no doubt interviewing those involved and checking on/debunking any untrue stories they may be telling.

Still waiting for that easy to manufature recreation you promised. But I doubt that you'll follow through.

You do know that video can be manipulated, right? You do realize that things can be faked, right? Video can be a good witness, but not everything you see on video is real.

If you hand over a tape to the police of what appears to be a murder, they aren't going to rush out and arrest, prosecute and send that person to jail for life based solely on that video. Why? Because what is on the video can be faked, this is why investigations are conducted to determine whether or not it's real.

[Zero]

You do know that video can be manipulated, right? You do realize that things can be faked, right?

I'm aware that expensive technology and clever editing techniques exist. I'm also aware that this video, which anyone can plainly see, displays neither.

[TVShootist]

I'm aware that expensive technology and clever editing techniques exist. I'm also aware that this video, which anyone can plainly see, displays neither.

You need neither expensive technology or clever editing techniques to fake a video, especially something like that.

[Zero]

You need neither expensive technology or clever editing techniques to fake a video, especially something like that.

If it's so simple. Show me how real you can make it look. Still waiting on that recreation you promised. Doubt you'll follow through.

Have you tried, only to discover the attempt looked fake?

You're all bark.

[TVShootist]

If it's so simple. Show me how real you can make it look. Still waiting on that recreation you promised. Doubt you'll follow through.

Have you tried, only to discover the attempt looked fake?

You're all bark.

You are an idiot. You proven that by saying that a blurry video of a dog being tossed off a cliff can't be faked.

I have many other things that are more important than recreating a stupid video that anyone could fake.

You are stupid, if you want to believe everything you see on video then have at it.

[Zero]

A blurry video of a dog being tossed off a cliff can't be faked.

Not believably. Prepare your apology speech now for when the Marines courts martial these idiots.

[Lazlo Toth]

I wondered what Michael Vick was doing since he left football.

[Zero]

I believe that video is fake.

My 4 year old niece has a toy dog that that looks identical to the dog in the video, everything from the color to the size. She got it from Toy's R Us and it is made to be life like, it looks real and even moves. At first glance, you would think it is a real dog. My guess is that the dog in the video is probably similar, if not the exact same toy my niece has. It's probably a toy they got donated to them to give to Iraqi kids, perhaps the toy was defunct or something.

Uh huh. Show me.

[TVShootist]

Not believably. Prepare your apology speech now for when the Marines courts martial these idiots.

You know what, being the man unlike you are.. if the video is proven to be real then I will fine with that. Right now I'm not saying that it is fake or real, all I'm saying is that I'm not going to make a judgment based on a single piece of blurry video. It could be real and it could be fake, I don't know and neither do you. Unlike you, I'm not going to sit here and pretend to know what is or isn't fact, because I don't know. Unless you are involved with the investigation or was there, you don't know the facts either.

If it's real, it's real, if not, then not. Whatever way the ball rolls will be the way it is, I have nothing to apologize for since I'm not calling the video fake or real, simply saying that it could easily be fake and that you don't know either.

[The Mockingbird]

I'm not sure exactly how a puppy launch simulation is going to advance the discussion, since we've already proved that MCS patients can apparently participate in internet threads.

It's possible the video could have been faked. The dog yelps seem a little to clear. But I don't have a clean copy to analyze.

It's a little ridiculous to go so far as to claim some left wing organization faked the video, though.

[Zero]

In 5 minutes I could recreate that video clip using my niece's toy dog and sound effects of dog/dogs barking. .

Uh huh. Show me.

[Zero]

Right now I'm not saying that it is fake or real, all I'm saying is that I'm not going to make a judgment based on a single piece of blurry video.

You've already declared the video to be

1) Fake
2) Easy to recreate

Now you're backing away from each of those claims.

Guess you should learn to think before you bark.

[Rambunctious]

Zero,

I have no proof one way or the other if this video is real or fake... but if you don't believe videos can be manipulated then you are sadly mistaken.

Here is an example of what I think supports the point TVShootist is trying to make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VC1-Nx1-I

[Rambunctious]

Zero,

Please quote or show me where TVShootist insisted it is not real. He believes it is fake but as never been as arrogant as you in claiming his opinion is fact.

[Zero]

That video was produced by a commerical advertising agency called DDB Oslo with very expensive equiment and editing techinques. The film was directed by the Oslo-based company Roenberg. They took full credit for the clever work and won many awards.

The only coorolation to your video example and that of the Marine throwing the puppy is in your imagination.

[Zero]

Zero,

Please quote or show me where TVShootist insisted it is not real. .

See the quotes above for irrefutable visual proof.

[Rambunctious]

I'm starting to believe that Zero stands for the number of your posts that make sense.

It's obvious you know how to use the quote feature so again I ask... show me anywhere TVShootist said it was not real as a fact and not an opinion.

and

How can you be certain the same expensive equipment, which I would guess is nothing more than a FCP program, was not used to make this video? The train video was designed to look like a handy cam so why not this one?

also

Another aspect of the "Fake" part could be that the dog is dead. This would require no additional equipment other than the camera.

again

Is it real or not... I don't know. Obviously the Marine Corp. isn't as positive as you since they are actually going to have an investigation.

[Zero]

again I ask... show me anywhere TVShootist said it was not real.

Again, I already have, and the quotes are above. Are you learning disabled? Or do you just not pay attention to detail?



How can you be certain the same expensive equipment, which I would guess is nothing more than a FCP program, was not used to make this video?

Oh now that's a good one.

Maybe for fun Peter Jackson or Steven Spielberg serritipioiusly enlisted a real U.S. Marine named Motari, who by the way really served in Iraq, to act out this oh so funny little video stunt without an apparent purpose and is currently keeping the fact a well guarded secret from the media and the U.S. Marine Corps. Yeah, that could happen.

I would expect this kind of logical reasoning from a kid on the schoolground. I hope you graduate fifth grade soon.

[The Mockingbird]

Well, seeing as this is the kind of high-quality discourse we like to encourage on Medialine, I will, for the sake of the community, counter with an equally witty retort:


Nuh uh!

[Starsky]

Well, see if you can wrap your tiny brain around this FACT: The camera works as an eyewitness account to visually document the event.

That's what we're seeing. But you foolishly insist, despite overwhelming evidence to the contrary, that what you're seeing didn't really happen.

Who are you going to believe? Me, or your lying eyes?

The Marines are no doubt interviewing those involved and checking on/debunking any untrue stories they may be telling.

Still waiting for that easy to manufature recreation you promised. But I doubt that you'll follow through.
Rodney King

[Starsky]

Who was the person who tried to tell me there is no hate for the US military? Which one of you was inferring that ant-war activists don't go over board in their effort to demonize the US military?

NEW YORK — New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg said a blast that shook Times Square and disrupted transit Thursday appears to have deliberately targeted the military recruiting center where it went off.
Bloomberg lambasted the perpetrator for apparently going after the armed forces.
"The fact that this appears deliberately directed at the recruiting station insults every one of our brave men and women around the world," the mayor said in a news conference in Times Square on Thursday.
Authorities in New York City are looking for the culprit who set off the rudimentary explosive device in Times Square early Thursday, with one witness describing a hooded man on a bicycle wearing a backpack and acting suspiciously just before the blast at the recruiting station.
Police released footage from a private security camera showing a cyclist riding up to the Times Square military recruiting station where a small bomb was detonated.
The bicyclist is seen getting off the 10-speed bike at 3:40 a.m. Thursday, and the blast occurring three minutes later. It is followed by a brief flash and a cloud of white smoke.
Related


Photo Essays


Bomb Rocks NYC Recruiting Center (http://www.foxnews.com/photoessay/0,4644,3494,00.html)
/**/
Police say they later found the bike in the trash.
New York City Police Commissioner Ray Kelly said an ammunition box was found at the scene.
"This was not a particularly sophisticated device," he said during the Thursday press conference.
Kelly said police were talking to a witness who was in the area shortly before the 3:45 a.m. explosion. The witness described a male bicyclist wearing a hood, dark clothing and a backpack and acting strangely — but said didn't see the man's face, according to Kelly.
Bloomberg said no one has come forward to report seeing a suspect plant a bomb, and no one so far has spoken of witnessing the device going off. Authorities were in the process of reviewing all the security camera footage, according to the mayor.



This is what these nut cases do. They fake video and try to draw blood because people like Zero want to do nothing more than indict the US Military for existing.

[The Mockingbird]

Nobody light a match, we're surrounded by straw men!

[Rambunctious]

There is no post above, below or anywhere on this thread where TVShootist says it is fact it is fake. There is no example above where you quote TVShootist as saying it is fact it is fake. You can continue to just say there is or you can prove it in your next response by using the quote feature. So please, please teach this fourth grader a lesson.:frustrated:

also...

Did Peter Jackson produce this fake commercial in his spare time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkRI3fXN75U

Is Steven Spielberg's next movie about shoelaces?

http://www.funny-games.biz/videos/850-bootlacetrick.html

and last but not least... forget about the war... we are being invaded!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up5jmbSjWkw


Still no clue on whether it is fake or not... but you just still have no clue period.

OH yeah...Nuh uh!;)

[TVShootist]

I have not concluded that the video is fake, I’ve clearly stated this. There is no way that you or I can look at that video and say if it’s real or fake, I don’t know if it is real or not. The difference between you and I, Zero, is that I am man enough to sit here and admit that I don’t know. I’m not afraid to admit that there are things that I do not know. It would be impossible for me to make such a judgment when I wasn’t there when that video was made nor being involved with the investigation conducted by the Marines.

What you consider to be facts aren’t facts at all, it is your opinion based on what you believe. There is nothing factual about that. If you are going to throw something out as factual, you have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that what you’re presenting as facts is actually factual. You cannot do this with a single piece of video, you just can’t. it’s impossible. If you can honestly sit there and claim that to be real based on a blurry piece of video you saw, then you’re an idiot.

Based on your logic that means if I released a video of what appears to me killing another person then I should automatically be sentenced to death, even though the video is fake. Seriously, that’s pretty much what you’re saying.

With that said, Zero, below are a couple of videos I found on youtube. Watch them and tell me, are these all real? If you come back and say that these aren’t real, then you’re nothing but a hypocrite.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=gSpKWzJIs4Y

http://youtube.com/watch?v=hnNplKfY6O8

http://youtube.com/watch?v=_xlyofmznOs

http://youtube.com/watch?v=3HfLNe8HC08

[Zero]

There is no post above, below or anywhere on this thread where TVShootist says it is fact it is fake.

Some little children make me smile. Some little children make me laugh. You, little child, do both. You have shown yourself to display all the quaintly ignorant reasoning power of a villager in Monty Python's search For The Holy Grail when responding quite sure of themselves to Sir Bedevere.

http://www.ideagrove.com/blog/uploaded_images/monty_python_witch-701441.jpg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fr8DIg3oHFI

You suggest it is more plausible than not that the puppy video is a fake. In defense of this position, you post a link of video trickery. But the video you cite, and I'm laughing again, was produced by a top line multi-million dollar advertising company which aired on television and garnered many awards for it's obvious state of the art commercial editing. They were selling something and doing so effectively.

But you suppose that this is very similar to a Marine throwing a puppy off a cliff. I bet the advertisers are lining up to get first crack at that one.

You assume that the video is fake until someone proves to your satisfaction that it's real.

After seeing the video I think it's much more intelligent to believe that the video is real and need to be convinced that it's fake.

There's a real Marine named Motari who is right now is in detention at a base in Hawaii and not even allowed to speak to his family. And he's gonna have to convince his superiors that either a) the puppy was fake (where'd you get it? when'd you get it?) or b) the puppy was dead (how'd you fake the yelps? who faked the yelps? why did you fake the yelps?)

Then his story is going to have to match up exactly with everyone else in the video, who no doubt have been separated from Motari. And their story is going to have to match up to everyone else on base who were told the story of the Motari puppy tossing video.

But you've considered none of this. Like a child, or ignorant villager, you chose to believe what you want to believe.

Keep on, brother. It's quite entertaining.

[Zero]

I have no proof one way or the other if this video is real or fake...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VC1-Nx1-I


Ha! This kills me. Please let me know when you figure it out.

[Rambunctious]

Zero,

Do you even read the posts before you respond.

I have never suggested it is more plausible this video is fake. I have clearly stated time and time again... I don't know if it is fake or not. I have debated both you and Starsky on this issue. You both are extremists on the opposite side stating your opinions has fact. They are not.

You point out the one link and choose to ignore the next three. Were they also produced by multi-million dollar production houses.

and...

you still can't use the quote feature to show where TVShootist says it is fact it is fake. On this issue alone you lost your creditability to debate. Seriously... I beg you... post one quote. One.

[Zero]

I don't know if it is fake or not.

Actually, the reference to believing the video to be more likely a fake was directed at that other funny fool TVShootist. It's easy to get you two confused.

As far as you're concerned, you took a look at the video. Then using your fifth grade powers of reason and deducibility, you couldn't figure out that this was an obvious documentation of an actual event. You need to have someone prove to you that it's real. You couldn't even decide if the video of the train doing a loop was a fake.

[Starsky]

Zero,

Do you even read the posts before you respond.

I have never suggested it is more plausible this video is fake. I have clearly stated time and time again... I don't know if it is fake or not. I have debated both you and Starsky on this issue. You both are extremists on the opposite side stating your opinions has fact. They are not.

You point out the one link and choose to ignore the next three. Were they also produced by multi-million dollar production houses.

and...

you still can't use the quote feature to show where TVShootist says it is fact it is fake. On this issue alone you lost your creditability to debate. Seriously... I beg you... post one quote. One.
How is believing this video is fake extreme in any way? Yes, Zero is a bit extreme as he hurls his personal attacks and nonsense, but all I am saying is that this video is fake. Sound effects are clearly used. The dog is clearly a toy. There is nothing in the video to mildly suggest that it is genuine. It simply takes a little reasoning.

Its funny how people like Zero won't allow someone to have an opinion without him hurling his personal attacks and insults. Nonetheless, it is even more disheartening that you people are allowing him to intimidate you to the point where you won't give your opinion.

[Zero]

Its funny how people like Zero won't allow someone to have an opinion without him hurling his personal attacks and insults.

Not stopping anyone from being stupid. I'm just trying to help them out by offering well thought out observations to their clearly ignorant impressions.

[Starsky]

Not stopping anyone from being stupid. I'm just trying to help them out by offering well thought out observations to their clearly ignorant impressions.
I see, that is what it is. Have you even watched the video? Do you have black eyes from such extreme knee jerk reactions? Have you ever edited a video?


Real question:

Are you a member of PETA? Do you live in CA? Berkeley? WHat is your position on the war.

I think it is fairly obvious your political beliefs and your youth have blinded you to the truth. That's okay though, it is refreshing that our youth are passionate about something, no matter how misguided.

[Zero]

I think it is fairly obvious your political beliefs and your youth have blinded you to the truth.

Not stopping anyone from being stupid.

[Starsky]

Not stopping anyone from being stupid.
You can't stop yourself. How would you expect to stop anyone else?

[Starsky]

BTW,
Zero Said:
Some little children make me smile. Some little children make me laugh. You, little child, do both. You have shown yourself to display all the quaintly ignorant reasoning power of a villager in Monty Python's search For The Holy Grail when responding quite sure of themselves to Sir Bedevere.
LMAO! Excellent!

[Rambunctious]

How is believing this video is fake extreme in any way?

...all I am saying is that this video is fake. Sound effects are clearly used. The dog is clearly a toy. There is nothing in the video to mildly suggest that it is genuine. It simply takes a little reasoning.

Nonetheless, it is even more disheartening that you people are allowing him to intimidate you to the point where you won't give your opinion.

Using extreme for you may have been extreme. I am merely pointing out you both are using a lot of opinions as facts. The dog is clearly a toy? It could be but we don't know that as fact. Sound effects are clearly used? Again could be but maybe not. Reasoning can lead you to the facts but reasoning can not create the facts.

Zero doesn't intimidate me in the least. I've just seen enough in my life not to jump before I look. I've seen too much video manipulation, without fancy equipment, to say it's not fake. I've seen too much cruelty by people to say it is not real.

[Zero]

BTW,

LMAO! Excellent!

Danke vielmals!

[Zero]

Here's a response that Motari wrote to someone on his MySpace page where he admitted killing the live puppy and doing it a favor.

The MySpace page has since been deleted.

Motari: "And this is the sh** I have to put up with everywhere I've gone today. Believe me I've heard it all. The thing that you guys don't understand is that you're not out there.

What, you expect me to carry a stray sick dog from patrol 10+ miles back to camp with me. Did you know that we're not supposed to have dogs? Did you know that there isn't medicine available for animals out there? So what the f*** do you want me to do with it. It was going to die a slow and horrible death.

Sorry you guys saw that, but it wasn't supposed to ever been shown. Usually what happens is we shoot them. I was being 'creative' that day and decided to throw the dog instead. If i could take it back, I would. Either way, I did the dog a favor. Sorry if you can't understand that."

[Zero]

Soldier shoots dog (http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a5ee2d6eb)

[Mayhem]

I would like to make a point to Zero about his claim of 'irrefutable video evidence.'
I saw irrefutable evidence that there are aliens from another galaxy on the planet. Thank goodness Will Smith is such a good fighter pilot.
I also saw irrefutable evidence that an invisible man is walking the steets... or was it just Chevy Chase's career that's invisible?
I have seen irrefutable evidence that monkeys can fly... good thing Dorothy killed their master.

Just because you see something on tape, does not mean it is fact and is exactly as depitcted.

[Starsky]

Here's a response that Motari wrote to someone on his MySpace page where he admitted killing the live puppy and doing it a favor.

The MySpace page has since been deleted.

Motari: "And this is the sh** I have to put up with everywhere I've gone today. Believe me I've heard it all. The thing that you guys don't understand is that you're not out there.

What, you expect me to carry a stray sick dog from patrol 10+ miles back to camp with me. Did you know that we're not supposed to have dogs? Did you know that there isn't medicine available for animals out there? So what the f*** do you want me to do with it. It was going to die a slow and horrible death.

Sorry you guys saw that, but it wasn't supposed to ever been shown. Usually what happens is we shoot them. I was being 'creative' that day and decided to throw the dog instead. If i could take it back, I would. Either way, I did the dog a favor. Sorry if you can't understand that."
And you are certain it was Motari's actual Myspace page? You do know, anyone can create a myspace page, right?

[TVShootist]

And you are certain it was Motari's actual Myspace page? You do know, anyone can create a myspace page, right?

I'm sure Zero will come back saying he has irrefutable evidence that it was Motari's myspace page. :rockon:

[TVShootist]

Here's a response that Motari wrote to someone on his MySpace page where he admitted killing the live puppy and doing it a favor.

The MySpace page has since been deleted.

"

You have no idea who wrote that message, and isn't it funny how the message was conveniently deleted so that none of us can actually see it.

[Angel's Hell]

I'm sure Zero will come back saying he has irrefutable evidence that it was Motari's myspace page. :rockon:

And that you can say you are anyone you want to be, right? The only way a page gets deleted is by it's author or the MySpace crew.

[Zero]

http://www.albertastars.com/userphotos/1233_3238_R.JPG

[TVShootist]

And that you can say you are anyone you want to be, right? The only way a page gets deleted is by it's author or the MySpace crew.

If the message was posted as a comment on someone else's page, than the owner of that specific myspace page can delete it as well.

[TVShootist]

http://www.albertastars.com/userphotos/1233_3238_R.JPG

What is the URL to David's MYSPACE page?

[Sigonfile]

This is what happened to the dog after it was tossed off the cliff.

http://www.superdeluxe.com/sd/contentDetail.do?id=D81F2344BF5AC7BB649AD962298BE5 A6EEE116521478046F

[Mr. Pratfall]

At first I was sure the video was fake, now I'm convinced it's real. Mainly because I believe people ARE capable of doing such a thing.

Marines or not, some people are jerks.

[sonorandesert]

Why do people doing bad, stupid, or illegal things insist on recording them?

See, once upon a time, people kept such things amongst themselves, i.e., secret. That way, it'd be harder to get caught and punished.

Now, however, they either (a) want to get caught and punished, or (b) assume no one will ever see the video, despite the fact that such tape is ALWAYS posted on YouTube, and record their acts.

I don't get it.
People on the whole are very smart.
Individually, they're dumber than dirt.

Motari proved that.

http://www.albertastars.com/userphotos/1233_3238_R.JPG

That explanation makes Gomer a serious candidate for OCS.

http://www.timvp.com/gomer2.jpg

Boot his Motari ass from the Corp.

And this is the sh*it I have to put up with everywhere I've gone today. Believe me, I've heard it all
Trust me, you haven't.

The thing you guys don't understand is that you're not out there
Point accepted.
...you expect me to carry a stray dog from patrol 10+ miles back to camp with me. Did you know we're not supposed to have dogs?
Then why pick the animal up and plastic tie it's front legs?

Did you know there isn't medicine available for animals out there?
What do the MP's use for their animals?

So what the ***** do you want me to do with it. It was going to die a slow and horrible death
Trusting it was an injured animal (wink, wink), keep reading.
It didn't look injured to me. Scared, but not injured

Sorry you guys saw that, but it wasn't to ever been shown.
Duh!
Someone on your crew, if not you, dropped the ball. I thank you or them.

Usually what happens is we shoot them. I was being "creative" that day and decided to throw the dog instead.
If I could take it back, I would.
Serious doubts there. You were BUSTED because some bonehead posted the video to YouTube.
As for being creative, one is creative in the Arts, Music and Food Sciences.
Your creativity consists of throwing a puppy over a cliff, because you think it was a good idea.
You simply threw a helpless puppy from a cliff and posted it online.
A real *****ing hero.

Oops, not done yet...

Either way, I did the dog a favor
So the argument is that the dog walked up to you and pleaded "take me out, now! I'm dead"?
If the dog were injured, take it out with one shot, between the eyes.
Much like taking a horse out after it's broken its leg.
That's more humane than throwing its body from a cliff and hearing another loser stating that that's wrong.

Sorry if you can't understand that.
It's understood.

[Stupid]

More than a serious candidate, he looks OCS material all the way!

[The Mockingbird]

Actually, quite a lot of people are stupid.

When you organize people into big groups, the organization can either prevent them from doing foolish things, or cause them to act more foolishly than usual.

[Zero]

Actually, quite a lot of people are stupid.

A lot of them chimed in on this thread claiming that after witnessing the video, they were just incapable of determining what they saw.

[Rambunctious]

Actually, the reference to believing the video to be more likely a fake was directed at that other funny fool TVShootist. It's easy to get you two confused.

As far as you're concerned, you took a look at the video. Then using your fifth grade powers of reason and deducibility, you couldn't figure out that this was an obvious documentation of an actual event. You need to have someone prove to you that it's real. You couldn't even decide if the video of the train doing a loop was a fake.

While I'm sorry you are easily confused... I'm not surprised.

I am glad, however, to see you back off your original claim that TVShootist insisted it was fake and now you admit he only thinks it is more likely a fake.

I was sure the train video was fake... but with your "see it, believe it" mindset... how did you think it was fake? How are you able to question irrefutable visual proof you are witnessing with your own eyes?

As far as your insistence it takes very expensive editing programs or Hollywood Directors to produce such videos...

Did Peter Jackson produce this fake commercial in his spare time?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IkRI3fXN75U

Is Steven Spielberg's next movie about shoelaces?

http://www.funny-games.biz/videos/85...lacetrick.html (http://www.funny-games.biz/videos/850-bootlacetrick.html)

and last but not least... forget about the war... we are being invaded!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=up5jmbSjWkw

Real or fake... I will wait for the investigation.

Sorry got to go... we are having pizza squares for lunch today!

[The Mockingbird]

A lot of them chimed in on this thread claiming that after witnessing the video, they were just incapable of determining what they saw.

There are plenty of internet hoaxes, it's not an unreasonable to reserve judgement on the authenticity of a small algorithmically compressed video.

I'd draw the line at concocting conspiracy theories involving moveon.org without some evidence to that effect, though.

[Rambunctious]

There are plenty of internet hoaxes...


For instance... I'm starting to wonder if you might have added that green hat to the original picture of you avatar. I'm not accusing... just wondering.;)

[The Mockingbird]

I'll save the guys at snopes.com some time:

http://openline.medialine.com/showthread.php?t=21092

Added with MS Paint only. The original hat was brown, btw.

The big question is, where did I get that beer?

[JoinUsForCake]

The big question is, where did I get that beer?
...and the bigger question is: Can I get one, too?:cheers:

[Paper Trail]

http://content.mahalo.com/images/1/1a/Motaribig_jh_030308.png

[Paper Trail]

Marine Corps Base Hawaii statement of Internet video of Marine with puppy (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil/pao/press/MCBH_Statement_5Mar08.htm)

The video images depicting a United States Marine abusing a puppy are disturbing and contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine.

This matter is currently under investigation to confirm the authenticity of the video and the persons responsible for the video. Upon completion of the investigation, it will be reviewed by each Marine’s commander who will determine the appropriate action to take in each case.

In the event that any Marine is charged with an offense, he will be afforded the constitutional and due process protections guaranteed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

If you would like to leave a comment for Marine Corps Base Hawaii please click on the link provided below. Your statement will be complied in a database for use regarding this situation.

mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil (mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil)

[HushHush]

So ... let's just play devils advocate here. Isn't the bigger issue here that the Marine Corps is ordering the soldiers to kill stray dogs? Shouldn't some of the outrage be directed that way?

[Spike]

Isn't the bigger issue here that the Marine Corps is ordering the soldiers to kill stray dogs?

Is that a bigger issue than animal control facilities killing stray dogs in this country?

[HushHush]

Well - one method is done via lethal injection - the other a shot in the head - or a toss over the cliff apparently. My point is that the Marine was ordered to kill the puppy by his superior officers. My first real boyfriend was a Marine - he came home pretty much brainwashed by the Corp - and he'd jump off a bridge if they ordered him to. I just don't think all the blame lies with this Marine. While his method of disposal is disgusting - he was doing what he was ordered to do.

[Zero]

My point is that the Marine was ordered to kill the puppy by his superior officers.

I don't think anyone told Motari to throw any puppies he should find over a cliff, and videotape it. I know he wrote that "usually" he and other Marines just shoot the dogs, but can you show me where you got the information that he was ordered to kill dogs?

Then maybe you can explain why The Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals International has a program called "Operation Baghdad Pups," which helps soldiers rescue and bring home animals from Iraq and Afghanistan. Wouldn't that be in violation of "orders?"

Or are you just "confused"?

[Zero]

There are plenty of internet hoaxes, it's not an unreasonable to reserve judgement on the authenticity of a small algorithmically compressed video.

Spare me the condescension. I'm well aware that people can and do fake things. I'm also equally aware that after viewing the video in question that it exhibits exactly none of the qualities of a cleverly produced commercial produced by a talented team of advertisers or a low grade hoax perpetrated by juvenile pranksters. Factor in that the U.S. Marines are investigating the allegation of abuse, and that there is a U.S. Marine named Motari in Hawaii and that he has addressed the incident on an Internet web page created long before the incident in question, and I think you can see why it's so incredibly stupid that anyone would still hold out the possibility that what they saw in the video was anything other than a recording of a Marine holding a puppy, smiling and then throwing the puppy of over a cliff.

[Zero]

I was sure the train video was fake... That's not what you wrote, even though the video you chose to make your silly case clearly was an expensive advertisement created by a very talented team of creative photographers, writers, editors and actors.

There's no comparison. You really need to think things through, little girl.

[Spike]

Well - one method is done via lethal injection - the other a shot in the head - or a toss over the cliff apparently.

I fail to see how shooting a dog in the head, which pretty much results in an instantaneous death, is more cruel than injecting the dog with poison. The shooting happens so fast that it's unlikely the dog feels any more pain.

My point is that the Marine was ordered to kill the puppy by his superior officers.

I don't see how this is any different from animal control in the United States. Animal control officers are ordered to kill dogs by their superiors every day. If there is a problem with stray animals and no government agency to address the problem, it could easily fall to the marines to take care of it. If they have to take care of the problem, I would much rather they do it quickly and painlessly with a bullet, then get back to their regular duties, than have them running an animal control bureaucracy that sucks time and money.

[Zero]

You need neither expensive technology or clever editing techniques to fake a video, especially something like that.


Still wating for that simple five-mintute worth of work recreation you promised to make for us to prove your point.

[Zero]

If you would like to leave a comment for Marine Corps Base Hawaii please click on the link provided below. Your statement will be complied in a database for use regarding this situation.

mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil (mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil)

Major Christ Perrine, Director of Public Affairs, 808-257-8841

Media Issues, 808-257-8870

Other Public Affairs Support 257-8840

After Hours Support Duty Officer
257-8474.

[Rambunctious]

That's not what you wrote, even though the video you chose to make your silly case clearly was an expensive advertisement created by a very talented team of creative photographers, writers, editors and actors.

There's no comparison. You really need to think things through, little girl.

I will assume you agree with most of what I have said since this is your only issue from my last few posts.

I did not write it was fake... but I was using it as an example of how you can fake a video. You can point out it wasn't a fair example because of who it was made by but... to insist I didn't know it was fake is... well close to the dumbest thing you have ever said... and you've said a lot.

[Starsky]

I am still waiting for proof that the video is real.

[Pro]

I'm waiting for proof that it is not.

[Zero]

to insist I didn't know it was fake is... well close to the dumbest thing you have ever said.

You said you couldn't prove whether the video you referenced was real or a fake. Obviously ample proof exisits in the laws of every day physics. So either you are a liar or an idiot. Which is it? I'm going with a little of both.

From page 6:

Zero,
I have no proof one way or the other if this video is real or fake... but if you don't believe videos can be manipulated then you are sadly mistaken.
Here is an example of what I think supports the point TVShootist is trying to make.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VC1-Nx1-I

[Zero]

I am still waiting for proof that the video is real.

Try watching it.

[Starsky]

Try watching it.
I have. The puppy looks fake and the sound effects were laughable.

Like I said, this is an elaborate scheme by dog huggers and soldier haters who prefers the death of a soldier over a mutt.

[Rambunctious]

Zero,

I have no proof one way or the other if this video is real or fake... but if you don't believe videos can be manipulated then you are sadly mistaken.

Here is an example of what I think supports the point TVShootist is trying to make.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U3VC1-Nx1-I


The this video is in reference to the Marine video. Notice how I then use a "but" and segue into a "Here is".

For you, however, I will make it a point in future posts to be painfully obvious... since your ability to follow along is questionable.

[MyracleMan]

I fail to see how shooting a dog in the head, which pretty much results in an instantaneous death, is more cruel than injecting the dog with poison. The shooting happens so fast that it's unlikely the dog feels any more pain.

Because the dog put down by the Humane Society has at least, typically, had a chance to be adopted by a happy family, and at least had a chance at a happy life. The dog with the bullet put in its brain, or tossed over a cliff, does not. Besides, statistics show that the majority of dogs put to sleep are older black dogs; there's some sort of stigma attached to big black dogs.

I don't see how this is any different from animal control in the United States. Animal control officers are ordered to kill dogs by their superiors every day. If there is a problem with stray animals and no government agency to address the problem, it could easily fall to the marines to take care of it. If they have to take care of the problem, I would much rather they do it quickly and painlessly with a bullet, then get back to their regular duties, than have them running an animal control bureaucracy that sucks time and money.

I'd rather they don't have to deal with it at all; leave it to the local police/military force. Don't get me wrong, Spike, I understand the point you're trying to make, but it makes you appear a cold-hearted bastard.

[AF Wifey]

So ... let's just play devils advocate here. Isn't the bigger issue here that the Marine Corps is ordering the soldiers to kill stray dogs? Shouldn't some of the outrage be directed that way?

Where are you getting this bogus information, and how can you possibly link any sort of defensive order to a puppy?

[Zero]

Where are you getting this bogus information, and how can you possibly link any sort of defensive order to a puppy?

She's making it up. She doesn't have a clue. She doesn't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

She's not a reporter.

[AF Wifey]

She's making it up. She doesn't have a clue. She doesn't know the difference between a fact and an opinion.

She's not a reporter.

I'm not and have never been a reporter...are you telling me that I don't have a clue or know the facts? If you are...you are dead wrong.

[The Mockingbird]

Spare me the condescension. I'm well aware that people can and do fake things. I'm also equally aware that after viewing the video in question that it exhibits exactly none of the qualities of a cleverly produced commercial produced by a talented team of advertisers or a low grade hoax perpetrated by juvenile pranksters. Factor in that the U.S. Marines are investigating the allegation of abuse, and that there is a U.S. Marine named Motari in Hawaii and that he has addressed the incident on an Internet web page created long before the incident in question, and I think you can see why it's so incredibly stupid that anyone would still hold out the possibility that what they saw in the video was anything other than a recording of a Marine holding a puppy, smiling and then throwing the puppy of over a cliff.

If you'd read any of the threads on here, you'd know that, thanks to Rosenberg, video production does not necessarily require talented or technically proficient people.

When Motari's jacket takes up the whole screen, it's would have been easy to an edit. There's an effect that lets you blend frames in many simple non-linear editing programs. Add to it the level of detail lost in coverting it to a compressed format, and it would be pretty hard to tell by eyeball alone.

Occam's razor would dictate that it wasn't likely, but it was within the realm of reasonable possibility.

[TVShootist]

Zero, I'm still waiting on your proof that the video is real.

[Zero]

I'm not and have never been a reporter...are you telling me that I don't have a clue or know the facts? If you are...you are dead wrong.

I'm talking about Hush. And I'm dead right.

[Zero]

Zero, I'm still waiting on your proof that the video is real.

Have you seen it? It's real. And you couldn't re-create it, no matter how hard you tried.

[Spike]

I'm not and have never been a reporter...are you telling me that I don't have a clue or know the facts?

You don't have a clue, but that has nothing to do with not being a reporter.

[TVShootist]

Have you seen it? It's real. And you couldn't re-create it, no matter how hard you tried.

I'm still waiting on your proof that it is real...

[Delta Dawn]

Here's an interesting video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-0Lj7mbXg) about what dogs and cats look like when you hold them by the scruff of the neck. I never doubted that the video was real, but this should answer questions from those who are holding out.

[Zero]

Nice video for those still ignorant enough to continue believing the fantasy that the dog either was dead or a fake.

[Paper Trail]

Forget due process. Online hordes act like judge and jury.

By David Sarno | Los Angeles Times Staff Writer (http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-080313-marine-puppy,1,7158679.story)

Throwing a puppy off a cliff? It would be hard to invent a better metaphor for cruelty. Small wonder then that when a video began circulating recently showing a U.S. Marine apparently doing just that, online communities the Web over erupted in anger and disgust.

It was a despicable and even shameful act, but the reaction was no better. Before any of the facts were established -- the Marine's identity, for instance, or whether the video was some kind of hoax -- the cyber mob had its torches lighted, and the auto-da-fé had begun. Barely a day after the video surfaced, a Marine's reputation was in tatters, his life threatened and his family terrorized.

The video goes like this: Two Marines are standing on a desert precipice in full battle gear. It could be in Iraq. One is holding a small, black-eyed puppy by the scruff of its neck.

"Cute little puppy, huh?" "Oh, so cute -- so cute!" coos the second Marine.

"Whoops, I tripped," says the first and hurls the animal off the rocky incline. As it twirls in the air, you hear a series of heartbreaking yips.

"That's mean," says the second Marine. "That's mean . . .," he repeats, adding the thrower's distinctive surname.

The Marines quickly began an investigation into the video and did not deny its authenticity. (Some viewers thought the puppy, which wasn't moving before it was thrown, might've been dead already or just a doll.)

Because the video has been reposted so many times, its origin is hard to pinpoint. But a version posted to a Dutch website two days before the story gained wide attention is still online and has received nearly 500,000 views.

With no facts to fill the information vacuum, the online hordes moved straight to conjecture. The crowd found a Marine with the same last name who had a personal Web page on the social network Bebo.com. And that was all they needed; the accusations, slander and intimations of violence came like a tidal wave.

Someone tried to leave this comment on my Web Scout blog: "I hope he gets killed by insurgents and burned to death and thrown off a cliff." I didn't publish that or a dozen others like it, nor did I allow commenters to post the besieged Marine's address and telephone number.

Not that it mattered: Internet vigilantes and a number of angry bloggers had already plastered the Web with the man's contact information as well as the names, phone numbers and addresses of his mother and sister -- who in short order received a wave of harassing phone calls. The family eventually had its phone number disconnected.

"We feel like we're living in a nightmare," the Marine's sister, who lives in Washington, told Seattle radio host Dori Monson. Her family, the sister said, had received multiple death threats related to her brother's alleged -- but unsubstantiated -- participation in the video. "I do not want to confirm if this is real or not," she said. "Because I don't want to do anything to incriminate him."

In his show, Monson called the family's travail a "witch hunt." "We're talking about human lives that are not in any way connected to the video that's inspired such anger," he told listeners. "And people want to do to them what he did to the dog. I think this is a cautionary tale about how fast a life can get turned upside down on the Web."

And he's right. A presumption of innocence never entered the picture. It was straight to the gallows for the Marine and his family. No need for pesky facts or time-consuming due process -- the crowd's appetite for revenge had to be sated.

The Internet is often credited for enabling new kinds of communication and, by extension, new social patterns. But there's nothing new about vigilante justice.

In January, Wired’s Threat Level blog reported a case in which anti-Scientology hackers mistakenly targeted a 59-year-old Stockton man, thinking he had something to do with a cyber-attack on one of their websites. The man, who later said he didn't "even really know how to use a computer," had his phone numbers, address and wife's Social Security number posted online. A series of harassing phone calls -- and at least one death threat -- followed.

If this kind of virtual lynching is going to be a part of the online landscape, innocent people are sure to be caught in the crossfire. And that will not be a triumph of progress.

Troops weigh in

THE response was more measured at sites for service personnel such as Military.com. Marines, Army, Air Force and Navy members -- many under their real names -- debated the video's authenticity and significance and worried that the video could harm the reputation of men in uniform.

"If true, all the individuals who were there need to face legal action," wrote a commenter who identified himself as a retired Air Force major. "The military doesn't need the kind of publicity this kind of thing brings with it."

Others felt the outrage was unwarranted: "I don't know about your unit and training, but I was taught to view the enemy as something other than human because it makes them easier to kill," wrote a commenter whose profile indicated he was a former Marine lance corporal. "If the allegations are true, he killed a defenseless animal and should be punished. But this throwing the book at him, simmer down people. It was a puppy, not a human baby."

After the puppy video surfaced, the online crowd dug up several other online videos that appeared to depict service members engaged in other acts of violence against animals, including dogs and sheep being shot or tormented.

Might battlefield stress or military training play a role in such acts of cruelty? This is a touchy subject. UC Irvine's Raymond Novaco, who studies include the relationship between anger and post-traumatic stress disorder and said he has been working with armed forces personnel for decades and has "great compassion for them," said an event such as the one portrayed in the puppy video would be "very unusual."

"If the incident even happened, I'd say it was a stretch to connect that with combat stress. The Marines don't train people to do that.".

What is clear is that, real or not, the puppy video has been a lose-lose situation for all parties. Even if it's discredited, the Marines may find that the image of one of their men holding up the ill-fated puppy won't be easily erased. And the men involved may find it can't be erased at all.

But the biggest loser here is the Internet. As it becomes trivially easy to play vigilante without ever coming out from behind your sheet, too many people are confusing bravery with downright cowardice.

david.sarno@latimes.com

[The Fedora]

good article, and a very good point.

[Zero]

"I do not want to confirm if this is real or not," she (Motari's sister) said. "Because I don't want to do anything to incriminate him."

This is the quote the writer David Sarno glossed over as if it were not a "fact".

I think it's deplorable that a bunch of yahoos have made anonymous threats to Motari's family. But, as I've stated once or twice on this thread, I think it's equally ignorant that otherwise intelligent people would look at that video and claim it to be something other than what they're seeing. I think it's stupid for these same people to ignore the fact that Motari admitted to killing the live puppy on his webpage and that Motari's sister comment means anything other than the same.

[!]

"We feel like we're living in a nightmare," the Marine's sister, who lives in Washington, told Seattle radio host Dori Monson. Her family, the sister said, had received multiple death threats related to her brother's alleged -- but unsubstantiated -- participation in the video. "I do not want to confirm if this is real or not," she said. "Because I don't want to do anything to incriminate him."
Hmm..

If a member of my family was falsely accused of doing something wrong or bad, and I was interviewed, I would defend that family member.

I think that concept passes the "reasonable man" test.

She knows he did it. If he didn't, she would "confirm" it was not real. Instead, she worries about incriminating him.

[Zero]

Right on the money.

[Lazlo Toth]

Okay, I've had this tasteless joke in my head ever since I first saw this thread title and it's now Friday, so I've worked up the courage or stupidity to invite the derision it deserves:

Marine vs. Puppy. Take the Marine. Give the points.

[Paper Trail]

March 14, 2008

Continuing Investigation of puppy video (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil/pao/press/MCBH_Statement.htm)

Marine Corps Base Hawaii continues to investigate allegations of a Marine abusing a puppy, shown in an internet video released March 3. The video gained widespread attention in the media and on the World Wide Web. The content of the video is appalling, deplorable and contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine at home and abroad.

MCB Hawaii learned of the video last week and immediately began an investigation to confirm its authenticity and the persons responsible for the video. The investigation will be thorough and will examine each person involved. Upon completion of the investigation, each Marine’s commander will take appropriate action based on the facts established in the completed investigation.

There are no charges filed at this time. In the event that any Marine is charged with an offense, he will be afforded the Constitutional and due process protections guaranteed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The vast majority of Marines conduct their duties with honor and compassion that brings great credit upon the Marine Corps and the United States. There have been numerous stories of Marines adopting pets and sending them home from Iraq or helping to arrange life-saving medical care for Iraqi children. Those are the stories that exemplify what we stand for and how most Marines conduct their actions.

Here is a link to a story of a Marine rescuing a dog from Iraq: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23295271/. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gave the Marine an award for compassion just last month. Here is a NY Times article about an Iraqi girl who received life-saving medical care in the States as a result of efforts by the Marines: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/middleeast/10iraq.html?ref=middleeas.

If you have a comment or concern regarding this incident, we encourage you to leave a comment or concern at the mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil e-mail link. Incoming statements and comments will be compiled in a database for use in this situation.

[Pro]

Marine vs. Puppy. Take the Marine. Give the points.

I hate to say this. I really do. But that's actually funny.

[McCovey Cove Returns]

Over/under of 49 1/2 feet. Take the over.

[Juan Macanudo]

Oh, you guys are a riot! What a funny sense of humor! Have a go at these videos and tell me which makes you laugh loudest, okay?

Soldiers shoot a dog
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=54e_1182844511

Soldier shoots yet another dog
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=0a5ee2d6eb

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=6703

and just for the hell of it
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WSTI3Ast45Q

Splashing kids with a hummer
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=727_1204139441

Shooting unarmed civilians then celebrating
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=7b6_1204052769

Teasing kids with water
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=11bf57cf1f

Soldier talking about wanting to kill Iraqi children/families, he's out of his mind
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=aea_1200639693

Soldier messing up civilians house for fun
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=8be_1204072976

Soldier being a dick to Iraqi police
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=e0b_1203423672

Having kids chant "I love pork!"
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=43e_1201330416

[Zero]

The video gained widespread attention in the media and on the World Wide Web. The content of the video is appalling, deplorable and contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine at home and abroad.

This certainly is a reasonable response.

Doesn't look like the Marine Corps is as easy to fool as some of the fools on this forum. You notice they don't preface their language with the ignorant speculation that the video may be manufactured or fake.

I think we can realistically expect charges this week against one or all of the Marines involved in the action, making and distributing of the video.

Semper Fidelis.

[Scotch On The Rocks]

Whenever the charges are filed, you can reasonably bet that it'll happen on a Friday, at about closing time, leaving everyone gone for the weekend and not available for comment.

[UpNorth]

To me the puppy still looks dead when he's holding it:

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c93/persiplz/puppy.jpg

either that - or its one of those realistic toys. His front legs don't move out of position at all during the tape - and it doesn't appear the eyes ever open.
.

I have to say... I didn't see the video yet - I've just been reading the commentary, but that does look like a dog in rigor mortis to me. Something about it's legs looks unnatural..

[Spike]

I have to say... I didn't see the video yet - I've just been reading the commentary, but that does look like a dog in rigor mortis to me. Something about it's legs looks unnatural..

Mongoloid voice.

[Scotch On The Rocks]

Here's an interesting video (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DR-0Lj7mbXg) about what dogs and cats look like when you hold them by the scruff of the neck. I never doubted that the video was real, but this should answer questions from those who are holding out.

Check out the video in this post, and you'll see that puppies go limp when picked up this way.

[The Mockingbird]

I never go limp when I'm picked up.

[UpNorth]

Mongoloid voice.

ok... the point of such an assinine comment is what??
Is that supposed to insult me? You're way off mark if that's what you are aiming for. I've done a great deal of work with the developmentally disabled, and some of them (especially some with downs' syndrome) have been among the greatest, truly good people with whom I have ever had the incredible honor of being associated.
If I had to chose between being like one of them or being like you... there's no question

[Spike]

ok... the point of such an assinine comment is what??


As I said in another thread, any time anybody posts video now, a bunch of morons come out of their stupor to start yelling "Fake!" I imagine you all with Mongoloid voices as I read your posts.

"Derrr, Fhake! Fhake! Da's FHAKE!"

This video is real. The video of the reporter getting hit by a snowtuber is real. The video of the deer getting hit by the race car is real.

"NO! FHAKE! Oh, I peed my pants..."

[UpNorth]

well, ****ing moron, had you actually read my post, you'd notice I never said it was fake. I said I had not seen it.
I don't know what the hell you are babbling about with regards to deer and snowtubers. Don 't really care.

But that doesn't matter one way or another. The fact that you think that is even CLOSE to being an appropriate comment says a whole lot about you.

[Starsky]

well, ****ing moron, had you actually read my post, you'd notice I never said it was fake. I said I had not seen it.
I don't know what the hell you are babbling about with regards to deer and snowtubers. Don 't really care.

But that doesn't matter one way or another. The fact that you think that is even CLOSE to being an appropriate comment says a whole lot about you.
Weren't you canadian?

[neodeity]

Weren't you canadian?

Aren’t you constipated?

[Starsky]

Aren’t you constipated?
Always. Are you German?

[Zero]

Today's a good day to check in on the Marine puppy investigation. It's a Friday and it's been three weeks. My guess is that they'll issue a press release at close of business.

[Paper Trail]

Puppy-toss video probe continues as calls pour in (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080324/COLUMNISTS32/803240314/1315/COLUMNISTS32)

By William Cole
Columnist

As the Marine Corps Base Hawai'i public affairs officer at Kane'ohe Bay, Maj. Chris Perrine has fielded thousands of e-mails and phone calls, domestic and international, about an Internet video that appears to show a smiling Marine hurling a puppy into a ravine in Iraq.

The Marine Corps base said it learned of the video March 3 and immediately began an investigation to confirm its authenticity and identify the people responsible.

"The investigation will be thorough and will examine each person involved," the base said on its Web site last week. "Upon completion of the investigation, each Marine's commander will take appropriate action based on the facts established in the completed investigation."

Questions about the case continue to come into The Advertiser, but the base said there are no charges filed at this time.

"They are talking to a lot of people, not all of whom are here," Perrine said.

The video was viewed more than 100,000 times on YouTube.com, and spread quickly across the Internet.

The callousness of a Marine holding what appeared to be a docile puppy by the scruff of the neck and then throwing it overhand into a ravine — with accompanying yelps as it tumbled through the air — outraged sensibilities to a degree that few other actions have.

The incident — and its aftermath — prompted Perrine, the public affairs officer, to pen a cautionary piece in the base newspaper titled "Lessons From an Internet Video," with recommendations that now should be fairly self-evident to any Marine with a cell phone camera and Internet access.

"There isn't much I can say about an ongoing investigation," Perrine said in the article, "but in the early stages of this incident several lessons stick out."

One is that once information is posted to a Web site, control over that information is relinquished. Perrine also notes that a lot of information on the Internet simply isn't true.

"I can't tell you how much hate mail I've received regarding a certain Marine who's been named as being in the puppy video," Perrine said. "He may ultimately be proven guilty, but we need to follow the proper process before we hang him — or the messenger."

Perrine said Marines should be thankful for the U.S. Constitution which they defend.

Some have mistaken Perrine, as the public face for the puppy incident, as the Marine in the video.

"I've received numerous messages calling for my painful and immediate death," Perrine said. "One compassionate animal lover said she wants to throw me from a helicopter and listen to me scream as I fall into the Grand Canyon. I thank God for the due process the Constitution gives us, and I want to preserve that right for every American."

One Marine in the video says what sounds like, "That was mean, Motari," to the puppy tosser, who shrugs and smiles.

The Kane'ohe Bay base previously said a Lance Cpl. David Motari is with the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, but officials have said they couldn't confirm Motari was in the video.

"He's here," Perrine said previously. "I don't know what he's doing on an hourly basis, but he is here."

Motari returned to Hawai'i in October from Haqlaniyah, Iraq, after a seven-month deployment, Perrine said. The 1,000 Marines with the 1st Battalion were stationed in the "Triad" area of Haditha, Haqlaniyah and Barwana northwest of Baghdad.

Most of Motari's unit recently went to the Big Island for training as the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines prepare to return to Iraq in a few months. Motari remained back on O'ahu.

Motari himself remains something of a mystery.

His family in Monroe, Wash., disconnected their phones after his identity spread across the Internet.

Few have publicly commented about him.

A longtime neighbor said Motari grew up in a religious family of 10 children in a blue-class neighborhood bordering a creek.

Questions remain as to whether the video was faked somehow, or the puppy was alive or dead, but whether real or not, the video damaged the Marine Corps image.

"It goes without saying that all Marines should conduct themselves with honor, courage and commitment," Perrine said in his piece. "We all know through Abu Ghraib and other incidents that the 'strategic corporal' at the fire team level can have an impact on national prestige and policy."

[The Mockingbird]

http://www.helpingpaws.org/images/AdultClassSum97.jpg

In this picture, taken at Abu Ghraib Kennel, we see dogs
forced to stand in a pyramid position for hours. Those who failed to
comply were told in a forceful tone "Bad girl!"

[Paper Trail]

Adopting Iraqi dogs violates military order (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/03/28/news/top_stories/10_07_177_55_08.txt)

By: GARY WARTH - Staff Writer


NORTH COUNTY ---- Stories about American troops adopting stray dogs in Iraq are heartwarming, but raise questions about whether the effort and expense is justified when so many dogs in the U.S. have no home.

Organizers of some adoption drives defend the practice as beneficial to troops, but also acknowledge the military's rules forbid troops from keeping pets in Iraq.

"They're risking a lot by keeping these animals," said Stephanie Scroggs, spokeswoman for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals International in Washington, D.C. "That is really a testament to how important they are to these soldiers."

The military's rule against the practice is clear: "Adopting as pets or mascots, caring for, or feeding any type of domestic or wild animal" was banned by U.S. Army Gen. Tommy Franks in 2000.

The order applies to all troops in the Middle East, Africa and Central Asia and remains in effect today.

Scroggs said helping bring a dog to the United States can help a troop get out of hot water for keeping it as a pet on base.

"We've had soldiers contact us in a panic, saying 'I have to abandon this dog unless you guys can get in here and help,' " she said.

Army Specialist Charles Espie, a multi-national force spokesman in Baghdad, said this week that the 2000 order addressing dog adoptions is still followed, although there have been lapses.

"The official response is we do go by General Order Number 1A," he said during a telephone interview, citing the specific rule. "But obviously, if you look into it, there are instances where it doesn't happen."

While the rule is frustrating for troops who want to adopt cute and friendly puppies, Espie said it's there to protect them from violent and diseased strays that run free in Iraq.

"It's actually to protect the solders' safety," he said. "The animals over here are foreign to us."

While the rule is strictly adhered to in Baghdad, Espie said, ignoring it seems to occur in more remote outposts around the country.

A Marine Corps official at the Pentagon said any questions about the dog adoption policy on its bases in Iraq need to be addressed by officials there. Efforts to get comment from a Marine spokesman in Iraq were not immediately successful.

'Overlook the rules'

Sacramento's Terri Crisp, program manager of Operation Baghdad Pups which was formed last year by SPCA International and a group called I Love Dogs to assist troops with bringing dogs back to the U.S., acknowledged the military directive is being ignored.

"We realize that there are rules, but there are times to overlook the rules," she said during a telephone interview this week, adding that there has been some sympathy for their efforts within the military's higher ranks.

"There are commanders who were willing to look the other way, who said, 'I'm going to turn my back for 20 minutes, and you do what you have to do and don't tell me anything about it.' "

The program has brought six dogs to the U.S. and is working to bring 35 more, said Crisp, who stressed that Operation Baghdad Pups started in response to troops who contacted the SPCA International for help.

"What do you say to these soldiers?" she said. "We didn't go looking for this, but being an animal-rescue operation, whenever someone contacts us, we have to look at it."

Locally, Miramar Marine Corps Air Station-based Maj. Brian Dennis raised $3,500 to bring home Nubs, a German shepherd-border collie mix he befriended while on patrol in the Anbar province last October. The two were reunited in San Diego on March 22.

In another rescue, Marines in working with Iraqis on border security adopted seven puppies.

Marine Capt. Jamisen Fox, who adopted two of the puppies, said this week he was not violating any military rules because he was on an Iraqi base along the Syrian border about 210 miles from Baghdad late last year.

"This base happened to have some dogs," he said.

Putting down dogs

In stories about his dog, Dennis was quoted as saying he had been told by commanders to get Nubs off his base in four days or have him killed.

Fox, however, said this week that in his two years in Iraq, he never saw such an extreme measure carried out.

Dangerous dogs or those running loose on a runway may have to be shot, he said, but an injured or diseased stray more likely would be humanely euthanized by an Army veterinarian on base to care for military dogs.

"You have to remember that these are Americans, and 99.9 percent of Americans love animals," he said. "We're talking last resort."

But Crisp maintained that dogs have been killed just for being on base. In one instance, she said a soldier claimed his puppy sneaked back on base one too many times and was killed.

"His e-mail (to his mother) said, 'I have sacrificed so much for this country, and all I asked in return was to bring a puppy home, and they took that from me,'" Crisp said.

She said she plans to ask the military to consider the adoptable dogs as "force-protection" canines while the paperwork is being processed.

"Each military unit is allowed to have a force-protection canine," she said. "Basically, they want them around to bark."

The cost, the reward

Bringing dogs from Iraq to the U.S. can cost more than $4,000 for transportation and security. With so many dogs already waiting for adoption in America, Crisp acknowledged that some people have questioned the practice.

"We do have people e-mail us and say, 'How dare you?'" Crisp said. "But I don't think six dogs are going to keep many dogs here from getting a home."

Patty Brook, spokeswoman for the Rancho Coastal Humane Society, which cared for Fox's puppies and Dennis' dog when they first arrived earlier this month, also defended the adoptions.

"These Americans have already adopted the dogs, so in a sense they are American dogs," she said.

All of the adoptions, locally and the ones organized by Operation Baghdad Pups, were funded by private donations.

Brook, Crisp and Scroggs said criticizing the expense misses the point.

"I think it is a lot to spend on an animal, but I think that it's worth it because the troops are sacrificing so much for us," Scroggs said. "These relationships are able to help our soldiers get through really tough times in a war zone."

Scroggs said one female soldier told her that having a dog in Iraq was the only thing that kept her from becoming callous toward life.

Fox said an unexpected benefit of the relationship between American troops and dogs may be a change in how Iraqis view animals.

"A majority of the people do not have pet dogs or pet cats," he said. "Iraqis, if a dog is wild and in their way, will shoot it with no hesitation."

But after watching Americans play with puppies in camp, young Iraqis were beginning to see dogs in a new light.

"I would absolutely, positively guarantee that the young Iraqis were picking up on our relationship with dogs," he said. "They were thinking, 'These things aren't all bad. They're kind of fun to play with.'"

[UpNorth]

I don't have a problem with that, regardless of the homeless animals here. These soldiers are facing such a difficult position. Having a dog is among the most therapuetic things when you are under excessive stress.
These people have already made enough sacrifice - don't make them leave behind something they have grown to love and which has helped them get through a rough time - especially when some of them have lost friends and comrads.
I am opposed to the war, but I am all for allowing these men and women something to help them transition back into daily life. These dogs can do that

[Lazlo Toth]

Adopting Iraqi dogs violates military order (http://www.nctimes.com/articles/2008/03/28/news/top_stories/10_07_177_55_08.txt)

By: GARY WARTH - Staff Writer


NORTH COUNTY ---- Stories about American troops adopting stray dogs in Iraq are heartwarming, but raise questions about whether the effort and expense is justified when so many dogs in the U.S. have no home.

Organizers of some adoption drives defend the practice as beneficial to troops, but also acknowledge the military's rules forbid troops from keeping pets in Iraq.

"They're risking a lot by keeping these animals," said Stephanie Scroggs, spokeswoman for the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals International in Washington, D.C. "That is really a testament to how important they are to these soldiers."

The military's rule against the practice is clear: "Adopting as pets or mascots, caring for, or feeding any type of domestic or wild animal" was banned by U.S. Army Gen. Tommy Franks in 2000.

The order applies to all troops in the Middle East, Africa and Central Asia and remains in effect today.

Scroggs said helping bring a dog to the United States can help a troop get out of hot water for keeping it as a pet on base.

"We've had soldiers contact us in a panic, saying 'I have to abandon this dog unless you guys can get in here and help,' " she said.

Army Specialist Charles Espie, a multi-national force spokesman in Baghdad, said this week that the 2000 order addressing dog adoptions is still followed, although there have been lapses.

"The official response is we do go by General Order Number 1A," he said during a telephone interview, citing the specific rule. "But obviously, if you look into it, there are instances where it doesn't happen."

While the rule is frustrating for troops who want to adopt cute and friendly puppies, Espie said it's there to protect them from violent and diseased strays that run free in Iraq.

"It's actually to protect the solders' safety," he said. "The animals over here are foreign to us."

While the rule is strictly adhered to in Baghdad, Espie said, ignoring it seems to occur in more remote outposts around the country.

A Marine Corps official at the Pentagon said any questions about the dog adoption policy on its bases in Iraq need to be addressed by officials there. Efforts to get comment from a Marine spokesman in Iraq were not immediately successful.

'Overlook the rules'

Sacramento's Terri Crisp, program manager of Operation Baghdad Pups which was formed last year by SPCA International and a group called I Love Dogs to assist troops with bringing dogs back to the U.S., acknowledged the military directive is being ignored.

"We realize that there are rules, but there are times to overlook the rules," she said during a telephone interview this week, adding that there has been some sympathy for their efforts within the military's higher ranks.

"There are commanders who were willing to look the other way, who said, 'I'm going to turn my back for 20 minutes, and you do what you have to do and don't tell me anything about it.' "

The program has brought six dogs to the U.S. and is working to bring 35 more, said Crisp, who stressed that Operation Baghdad Pups started in response to troops who contacted the SPCA International for help.

"What do you say to these soldiers?" she said. "We didn't go looking for this, but being an animal-rescue operation, whenever someone contacts us, we have to look at it."

Locally, Miramar Marine Corps Air Station-based Maj. Brian Dennis raised $3,500 to bring home Nubs, a German shepherd-border collie mix he befriended while on patrol in the Anbar province last October. The two were reunited in San Diego on March 22.

In another rescue, Marines in working with Iraqis on border security adopted seven puppies.

Marine Capt. Jamisen Fox, who adopted two of the puppies, said this week he was not violating any military rules because he was on an Iraqi base along the Syrian border about 210 miles from Baghdad late last year.

"This base happened to have some dogs," he said.

Putting down dogs

In stories about his dog, Dennis was quoted as saying he had been told by commanders to get Nubs off his base in four days or have him killed.

Fox, however, said this week that in his two years in Iraq, he never saw such an extreme measure carried out.

Dangerous dogs or those running loose on a runway may have to be shot, he said, but an injured or diseased stray more likely would be humanely euthanized by an Army veterinarian on base to care for military dogs.

"You have to remember that these are Americans, and 99.9 percent of Americans love animals," he said. "We're talking last resort."

But Crisp maintained that dogs have been killed just for being on base. In one instance, she said a soldier claimed his puppy sneaked back on base one too many times and was killed.

"His e-mail (to his mother) said, 'I have sacrificed so much for this country, and all I asked in return was to bring a puppy home, and they took that from me,'" Crisp said.

She said she plans to ask the military to consider the adoptable dogs as "force-protection" canines while the paperwork is being processed.

"Each military unit is allowed to have a force-protection canine," she said. "Basically, they want them around to bark."

The cost, the reward

Bringing dogs from Iraq to the U.S. can cost more than $4,000 for transportation and security. With so many dogs already waiting for adoption in America, Crisp acknowledged that some people have questioned the practice.

"We do have people e-mail us and say, 'How dare you?'" Crisp said. "But I don't think six dogs are going to keep many dogs here from getting a home."

Patty Brook, spokeswoman for the Rancho Coastal Humane Society, which cared for Fox's puppies and Dennis' dog when they first arrived earlier this month, also defended the adoptions.

"These Americans have already adopted the dogs, so in a sense they are American dogs," she said.

All of the adoptions, locally and the ones organized by Operation Baghdad Pups, were funded by private donations.

Brook, Crisp and Scroggs said criticizing the expense misses the point.

"I think it is a lot to spend on an animal, but I think that it's worth it because the troops are sacrificing so much for us," Scroggs said. "These relationships are able to help our soldiers get through really tough times in a war zone."

Scroggs said one female soldier told her that having a dog in Iraq was the only thing that kept her from becoming callous toward life.

Fox said an unexpected benefit of the relationship between American troops and dogs may be a change in how Iraqis view animals.

"A majority of the people do not have pet dogs or pet cats," he said. "Iraqis, if a dog is wild and in their way, will shoot it with no hesitation."

But after watching Americans play with puppies in camp, young Iraqis were beginning to see dogs in a new light.

"I would absolutely, positively guarantee that the young Iraqis were picking up on our relationship with dogs," he said. "They were thinking, 'These things aren't all bad. They're kind of fun to play with.'"

Watch for the new Pet Food Express store in Baghdad.

[Juan Macanudo]

Major Christ Perrine, Director of Public Affairs, 808-257-8841

Media Issues, 808-257-8870

Other Public Affairs Support 257-8840

After Hours Support Duty Officer
257-8474.

Their website is down today and PA isn't answering the phone. Wonder if this means anything?

[Lazlo Toth]

Their website is down today and PA isn't answering the phone. Wonder if this means anything?

They're at the dog show.

[Mr. Rugen]

Have we ever had a thread this long about the killing of a person?

[Zero]

This thread isn't so much about the outrage of a Marine killing a puppy as it is about people chosing to argue that it never happened, or they, for some silly reason, just can't bring themselves to accept the facts as presented to them.

[Paper Trail]

MCBH Statement
Public Affairs Office
Marine Corps Base Hawaii
For additional information contact: mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil

April 11, 2008

Continuing Investigation of puppy video (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil/pao/press/MCBH_Statement.htm)

MARINE CORPS BASE HAWAII, Oahu -- Marine Corps Base Hawaii continues to investigate allegations of a Marine abusing a puppy, shown in an internet video released March 3. The video gained widespread attention in the media and on the World Wide Web. The content of the video is appalling, deplorable and contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine at home and abroad.

MCB Hawaii learned of the video March 3 and immediately began an investigation to confirm its authenticity and the persons responsible for the video. The investigation will be thorough and will examine each person involved. Upon completion of the investigation, each Marine’s commander will take appropriate action based on the facts established in the completed investigation.

There are no charges filed at this time. In the event that any Marine is charged with an offense, he will be afforded the Constitutional and due process rights guaranteed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The vast majority of Marines conduct their duties with honor and compassion that brings great credit upon the Marine Corps and the United States. There have been numerous stories of Marines adopting pets and sending them home from Iraq or helping to arrange life-saving medical care for Iraqi children. Those are the stories that exemplify what we stand for and how most Marines conduct their actions.

Here is a link to a story of a Marine rescuing a dog from Iraq: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23295271/. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gave the Marine an award for compassion just last month. Here is a NY Times article about an Iraqi girl who received life-saving medical care in the States as a result of efforts by the Marines: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/middleeast/10iraq.html?ref=middleeas

If you want to voice a comment or concern regarding this incident, we encourage you to visit our Web site at www.mcbh.usmc.mil and leave your comment or concern by clicking the mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil e-mail link. Incoming statements and comments will be compiled in a database for use in this situation.

[Lazlo Toth]

MCBH Statement
Public Affairs Office
Marine Corps Base Hawaii
For additional information contact: mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil

April 11, 2008

Continuing Investigation of puppy video (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil/pao/press/MCBH_Statement.htm)

MARINE CORPS BASE HAWAII, Oahu -- Marine Corps Base Hawaii continues to investigate allegations of a Marine abusing a puppy, shown in an internet video released March 3. The video gained widespread attention in the media and on the World Wide Web. The content of the video is appalling, deplorable and contrary to the high standards we expect of every Marine at home and abroad.

MCB Hawaii learned of the video March 3 and immediately began an investigation to confirm its authenticity and the persons responsible for the video. The investigation will be thorough and will examine each person involved. Upon completion of the investigation, each Marine’s commander will take appropriate action based on the facts established in the completed investigation.

There are no charges filed at this time. In the event that any Marine is charged with an offense, he will be afforded the Constitutional and due process rights guaranteed by the Uniform Code of Military Justice.

The vast majority of Marines conduct their duties with honor and compassion that brings great credit upon the Marine Corps and the United States. There have been numerous stories of Marines adopting pets and sending them home from Iraq or helping to arrange life-saving medical care for Iraqi children. Those are the stories that exemplify what we stand for and how most Marines conduct their actions.

Here is a link to a story of a Marine rescuing a dog from Iraq: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23295271/. People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals gave the Marine an award for compassion just last month. Here is a NY Times article about an Iraqi girl who received life-saving medical care in the States as a result of efforts by the Marines: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/10/world/middleeast/10iraq.html?ref=middleeas

If you want to voice a comment or concern regarding this incident, we encourage you to visit our Web site at www.mcbh.usmc.mil (http://www.mcbh.usmc.mil) and leave your comment or concern by clicking the mcbh.pao.fct@nmci.usmc.mil e-mail link. Incoming statements and comments will be compiled in a database for use in this situation.

That must be some thorough investigation.

[TV Dad]

That must be some thorough investigation.


That's what I've been thinking, too. How long could it take to find out if this is true or not? At first, I thought it must have been faked because I didn't want to believe anyone could be so intentionally cruel. Now, it almost feels like the Marines are stalling, so maybe the video was real and they're trying to figure out how to deal with the publicity fallout.

[Spike]

How long could it take to find out if this is true or not?

Ten minutes.

"Get Motari in here!"

Nine minutes later:

"Son, is that you in that video?"

"Yes sir."

"Is that you in that video throwing a puppy off a hill?"

"Yes sir."

"How would you feel about latrine duty for the rest of your life?"

"I wouldn't like it, sir."

"Then don't do that again, at least not on camera."

The Marines have conducted their "investigation." It wouldn't surprise me if Motari has already received any kind of reprimand he's going to get. Now they're stalling, hoping to dispose of this mess quietly some months after the public has forgotten about it.

Repeatedly releasing the EXACT SAME press release is a joke, a "***** you" to the journalists and public who have called for updates on the story.

[Paper Trail]

By William Cole
Advertiser Military Writer (http://www.honoluluadvertiser.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080429/NEWS08/804290322/1018/LOCALNEWSFRONT)

An investigation may be concluded soon into an online video that appeared to show a U.S. Marine throwing a puppy into a ravine in Iraq, an official said yesterday.

"I think they are about to wrap up the investigation, and they'll determine what they are going to do," said Maj. Chris Perrine, a spokesman at Marine Corps Base Hawai'i at Kane'ohe Bay.

The callousness of a Marine holding what appeared to be a docile puppy by the scruff of the neck and then throwing it overhand into a ravine — with accompanying yelps as it tumbled through the air — prompted public outrage.

The video was viewed more than 100,000 times on YouTube .com and quickly spread across the Internet.

The Marine Corps base said it learned of the video March 3 and immediately began an investigation in Hawai'i to confirm its authenticity and identify the people responsible.

One Marine in the video says what sounds like, "That was mean, Motari," to the puppy tosser, who shrugs and smiles.

The Kane'ohe Bay base previously said a Lance Cpl. David Motari is with the 1st Battalion, 3rd Marine Regiment, but officials have said they couldn't confirm Motari was in the video.

Motari returned to Hawai'i in October from Haqlaniyah, Iraq, after a seven-month deployment, Perrine said previously. The 1,000 Marines with the 1st Battalion were stationed in the "Triad" area of Haditha, Haqla-niyah and Barwana, northwest of Baghdad.

The criminal investigation division at the Kane'ohe Bay base is investigating the case, Perrine said.

"They are talking to numerous people in the chain of command — some are out of the Marine Corps, and some are at other duty stations," Perrine said.

The 1st Battalion, 3rd Marines, are training for a return to Iraq, possibly in August or September.

An exercise was held at Pohakuloa Training Area on the Big Island in March, but Motari stayed behind at Kane'ohe Bay for unknown reasons, Perrine said.

Efforts to reach the Marine have been unsuccessful, and his family in Washington state have said little. Perrine said Motari is expected to to stay with the 1st Battalion at least for the time being.

"They are not going to let him go anywhere while the investigation is ongoing," Perrine said. No disciplinary action has been taken, he said.

Perrine also said it's unclear whether Motari would return to Iraq.

"We'll have to wait and see what happens with the situation," Perrine said. "If he's not in the Marine Corps anymore, he's not going. If there are no charges pressed, I'd imagine he would."

Motari is doing "normal working duties" as an infantryman in the meantime, Perrine said.

Reach William Cole at wcole@honoluluadvertiser.com

[Lazlo Toth]

The Marines are considering punishing Motari by not letting him kill any more people.

[Zero]

I do wonder what they're going to do as a disciplinary measure. Will they charge him with a UCMJ violation/crime? I don't think so. But on the other hand, whatever they do, there will be howls of protest that the Marine Corps didn't do enough.

They might just throw him out.