How did you arrive at your political beliefs?

[cinehead]

Okay, no work today because of the flu, so I'd thought I'd entertain myself here in Medialineland for a few hours.

I was wondering, how did you arrive at your political views? My theory is that most people get the political beliefs the same way they get their religious beliefs - it's handed down to them from their parents.

Now, I'm sure there are quite a few people that in the spirit of rebellion go in the opposite direction than their parents, but I think that's more the exception than the rule.

Or was it some single issue that won you over; i.e. Roe v. Wade, economics, the environment, national defense?

Me? I grew up on the East Coast in blue collar/Irish-Catholic/Union family that, not surprisingly, was strictly Democrat. Pretty stereotypical, I think.

I went through a searching period, reading the National Review and American Spectator, but ended up pretty close to where I began, an Independent with liberal leanings.

What about you?

[Tippster]

Thanks to my Catholic upbringing I tend toward the liberal side of Centrism. I don't see how anyone calling themselves a Christian could also deny food and shelter to those in need. That said - if you rape and murder children I'll throw the switch myself while spitting in your eye.

I still hold to those values despite my rejection of the dogma.

[Mr. Rugen]

Medialineland is not a word, Hitler.

[cinehead]

Medialineland is not a word, Hitler.

I said, I was an Independent, not a Fascist.

[60.cycle.hum]

Strangely enough my parents are on exact opposites of the political spectrum. My Dad is extremely liberal and a proud socialist while my mom is a dyed in the red conservative.

My Dad is a Reformed Druid which is where he gleaned most of his political beliefs. He'd like to see an end to all wars, all poverty, all hunger. He believes in higher minimum wages, universal health care, universal access to good schools, including higher education. His biggest issue is the environment and he's especially against deforestation (lives near the Redwoods in Northern California). He believes that alternate forms of energy should be legislated into use.

My Mom is an unabashed believer in Jesus of Nazereth. She'd like to see an end to abortion (except for medical reasons) through a constitutional ammendment. She's against gay marriage and for lower taxes. She against euthanasia and supports the death penalty. She sent her three boys to private school herself but she's highly in favor of school vouchers.

They were married for 14 years, divorced for the last 16.

My brother's and I are somewhere in the middle of all that politically.

[cinehead]

Strangely enough my parents are on exact opposites of the political spectrum. My Dad is extremely liberal and a proud socialist while my mom is a dyed in the red conservative.

My Dad is a Reformed Druid which is where he gleaned most of his political beliefs. He'd like to see an end to all wars, all poverty, all hunger. He believes in higher minimum wages, universal health care, universal access to good schools, including higher education. His biggest issue is the environment and he's especially against deforestation (lives near the Redwoods in Northern California). He believes that alternate forms of energy should be legislated into use.

My Mom is an unabashed believer in Jesus of Nazereth. She'd like to see an end to abortion (except for medical reasons) through a constitutional ammendment. She's against gay marriage and for lower taxes. She against euthanasia and supports the death penalty. She sent her three boys to private school herself but she's highly in favor of school vouchers.

They were married for 14 years, divorced for the last 16.

My brother's and I are somewhere in the middle of all that politically.

Wow, it's hard to imagine how two people with such different political views got together. I but it made for some pretty interesting dinnertime conversation.

[zeppelin42]

I was raised with a strict love for the Bible. My father would have me practise handwriting in English by having me copy portions of the Bible for later debate. When I was 12, one day I prayed for several hours for only one thing in the world that meant something to me: to be permitted to know whether my faith was true. I was young and naive and had no idea what that meant or how it might be accomplished. A few weeks later, God showed me the future in a dream. I didn't know that it was the future then, but unlike most of my other dreams, I remember this one with perfect clarity. I grew up not really thinking much about it, but keeping my faith in front of me.

When I came to the US, my peer group shifted to include atheists, agnostics, civil Christians, and those of many other faith identities. I listened and learned eagerly to what everybody had to say, and I was never afraid to voice disagreement felt at the very core of my being. That disagreement would not stop me from walking toward my debators in finding that point between us where we could indeed agree, and I made and kept many friendships that way.

I had some trying times with my Earthly father as an older teenager, where I pushed far away from the Bible not because of love but because of disgust for what its followers had done. I failed to uphold the Fourth Commandment (protestant), but I always respected the Seventh day. When my father became sick, I put aside differences with him, and moved back home to make money for the family.

I went to a very violent inner-city high school. I had and still have old friends who don't get to die natural deaths and I am furious at every life unnecessarily lost. And the feeling of outrage over the deaths of human beings transforms my fire to closely scrutinise the many contradictory reasons why those lives are actually lost. And I have been struggling against those reasons for a long time now, and to get others to question them.

Also, both of my parents played guitar and piano and knew how to read music. Both of my parents were linguists, with my father and mother speaking German, French, English, and Spanish fluently between one another. Growing up, my mother also knew Latin and Russian, later she learned Albanian, Italian, Japanese, Chinese, and Scots Gaelic. My father knew Greek, Hebrew, and only etymological Latin, but he learned Russian and Arabic later in life. I could go on and on about my parents, but I will simplify by saying they surrounded me with all cultures on Earth in terms of language, music, food, people, dance, history, and philosophy.

When I had to work for the family, I had to put off college, which I did once again later. I have worked in different parts of our economy, society, and government throughout my life, and have put those different pieces into context. Altogether, the most important religious transformation of my life came after college when I met a sect of right-wing Jews who have a plan to bring the Messiah into the world. They are not secretive, and are very open about their beliefs. The Rabbi has given me a lot of wisdom to aid and strengthen my faith in myself and Christ, and given me wisdom about Christ through Old Testament teachings handed down from father to son and in schools for the past 3,000 years. The Rabbi also helps me come to terms with my Jewish heritage and what that means for me as a Christian.

So in answer to cinehead's question, I would say that it wasn't just my parents and the environment they created for me. It was also my interactions with everybody in my life and the love I have had for them which moves me to try and change the world for the better. My political beliefs are not so clearly distinguishable from my religious beliefs, though I do think it is necessary to keep politics and religion separated from one another in our institutions.
-zep

[commercial hack]

Grew up in San Francisco Bay Area with Democratic parents. Having said that they are the Democrats of old when Democrats were not so far left-leaning liberals. They were more conservative, grew up during the depression, my father served 20 years in the Navy. I was taught to never depend on anyone but yourself, follow the rules and carry yourself with integrity. I still had a grave misunderstanding of "rich vs. poor". We lived on the side of town with less money so I had too many people around me that were jealous of those who had money, too many around me who didn't understand what it takes to be "rich" and it did rub off on me. So even with conservative thoughts, I still had "the rich are evil" attitude. Boy was I confused.

I became a Democrat because they were. I was a "Reagan Democrat" and I would have voted for him in 1984, but turned 18 a month after the election. I voted for Clinton in 1992. (my wife still has a photo of me holding a Clinton sign at a rally). In 1993 after Clinton ran as a "centrist" then quickly went left, I followed my conservative heart and became a Republican. I am for less government, less taxation and the capitalist system. I am for helping those who need a hand up, because a rising tide lifts all ships. I stopped with my "rich are evil" attitude because I started to grasp the idea of how our system works, how you can be successful if you work at it and with being successful, you can help others.

So I have an understanding of how Democrats think and as I have grown up and learned how the world works, my views have changed.

I can go on but I think you get my point....check out one of my sig lines, I've been on both sides of it.

[Diplomat]

One of my parents was an independent conservative and the other a Democrat-turned-Republican of the Nixon/Reagan stripe. Many of my relatives are die-hard Democrats and some of them equate Jimmy Carter with our Lord. When I hear them or some politician bleat about "working people," I want to puke because they don't think anyone but factory employees and farmers "work"--no respect for what businesspeople or creative types do; businesspeople were thought as evil. They felt government knew best in all instances for others but not for them.

I arrived at my beliefs through my own thought and study and personal experience.

[Rambunctious]

by bus.

[Angel's Hell]

by fax

[News Is Broken]

I'm not above a bribe - I'll vote for whoever's platform shows me the cold hard CASH.

[Bureau Chief]

Well my parents and especially my father and grand father were EXTREMELY bigoted. My father was the Virginia campaign manager for the 1968 George Wallace for President and he fit the bill perfectly. About that time, we were in the family car going somewhere when I waved to a classmate that was on the sidewalk....who happened to be black. I thought I was going to have to walk home that day. Having gone to a well integrated high school, I thought nothing of waving to a classmate, black or otherwise. It was the parting point for us. He saw that I was not going to be made in his image and he left a few years later. We seldom communicated after that. I was a republican then but had to switch when Tricky Dick was in power. Living in DC gives you a whole different perspective on those national political crisis. I then switched to vote for Regan. NOW I am a Democrat opposed to the war ....FROM THE START, I might add and am disgusted with all of the current offerings but will likely vote for McCain...cause the other two aint doing it for me. I am an issues person, not a party or personality one.

[ShakAttack]

My overly-bearing Jewish parents and upbringing shaped me into what I am today: I’m a liberal agnostic American. My parents conniving way of mixing hardcore politics with their faith is what made me question everything they had raised me to believe. This is exclusively my experience and I don’t mean to offend anyone with sharing my upbringing.

How I have come to what I have become is copied in the following (from a previous post)

“For the record, I’m Jewish. I was raised in a staunch Jewish household where my dad made us (I have four brothers) read Theodor Herzl, Kastner, and Brenner by our teen years. Two of my brothers are currently in the kibbutz, the other two graduated from Ivy League schools and are currently working in the East Coast. From when I can remember, my mother instilled in us that we are the chosen population, so we need to be better than others around us when it comes to academics and achievements. My dad laid the foundation very early on in our young psyches about our duties, responsibilities and obligations toward Israel – the land of “our people.” I have grown up around my dad’s views and those of his peers that this great country doesn’t do enough to end the plight of my people in Israel. Even though I was raised in the Bible-belt Midwest – there was big enough a Jewish community that shared the identical mindset of my parents.

The few times I visited extended family members in Israel, I felt like I was being resented by them for being selfish and for enjoying a privileged and materially-gratifying life in the U.S. Please note, I’m only speaking for my own self, my upbringing and the mentality of my parents here – this is NOT a blanket statement for all Jewish families. Over the years, I have tried to break out of the mindset of my upbringing. I wanted to experience everything beyond the realm of what I was raised to believe, and form my own independent thinking. I’m an American first, my race and religion comes after that. Obviously, my rebellious way of thinking resulted in me being the disappointment for my parents, and they’ve never been shy of reminding me of having “average” aspirations in my ideologies and achievements. Despite growing up in relatively comfortable surroundings (my dad did well for himself) -- I currently have a broader outlook in life even though I live on a limited reporter’s pay.”

[Obewon]

My first real paycheck.


I had worked like a dog all summer and had already mentally spent the money I thought it was going to be. When I got my check it was about two thirds of that.

I threw a nutter and went screaming into payroll demanding an explanation.

It took me weeks to calm down from learning that the money I earned through hard work was being stolen from me and given to people who contribute nothing to society and a government that was totally out of control.

That was a long time ago and my feelings have only intensified.

It's nothing more than criminal extortion

[Bandit]

For me, the issue of race was a big determinant. Growing up in the south in the 60s and 70s, I heard the N word tossed around casually both in my home and in my community. Shamefully, I used it all too often as well as a young person.

I had the good fortune of learning a lot about issues of race over time from some really great people in my journey (including a couple on ML).

Those experiences over a long period of time have lead me to where I am politically ... socially liberal, & economically I'm middle of the road.

Those views are very different from my folks, who remain in the Jesse Helms conservative mold, which is where my journey politically began.

Fortunately, in my view that brand of conservatism has tended to fade over time.

[Clever Login Name]

I logged on to Medialine and waited for buckpasser to tell me what I thought and what I believed in.

[Marty McFly]

Amen Obewon!
I remember when I was 15 and hitting the roof when I saw that that such a good chunk of my check was missing.

Then, come tax time... I had to pay EVEN MORE!

So wait a second... first they take out something from every check, and to start off the year they say I didn't pay enough?!

They hit you coming and going!

That certainly inspired my leanings towards libertarianism... and in 2002, this article (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=26999) by Harry Browne solidified it.

[Pro]

I grew up in the 1960's. My political hero was Robert F. Kennedy. The greatest speech I ever heard was Ted Kennedy's euology ("My brother was a good and decent man who saw suffering and tried to heal it...saw war and tried to stop it.")

I grew slightly more conservative in the late 1970's as I was aghast at the Carter Administration and it's ineptitude. But when I heard what Ronald Reagan advocated, I was sickened. That brought me back.

[Produce man]

By horse and buggy.

[Marty McFly]

I grew up in the 1960's. My political hero was Robert F. Kennedy. The greatest speech I ever heard was Ted Kennedy's euology ("My brother was a good and decent man who saw suffering and tried to heal it...saw war and tried to stop it.")

I grew slightly more conservative in the late 1970's as I was aghast at the Carter Administration and it's ineptitude. But when I heard what Ronald Reagan advocated, I was sickened. That brought me back.

What did Ronald Reagan advocate? (Not trying to hijack the thread, asking for clarification as it pertains to thread topic)

[New York'rr]

My grandparents were immigrants who lived in NYC during the Depression. The things they said about people different from them would curl your hair. My grandpa walked down to the corner and read the NY Daily News every day, thus he had a strong anti-Republican hatred. They never used credit for anything and thus died in their 80's living in an apartment without ever having accumulated any real wealth of their own despite working their entire lives. Such a shame. I loved them dearly.

My parents voted for Kennedy, Nixon, and Reagan. I think they sat out the elections in between since they thought the alternatives stunk. They're too busy traveling these days to give a damn about politics anymore.

I grew up in the 1970's, being told day after day that I should not expect to enjoy the same standard of living as my parents. I remember being told that the Energy Crisis meant that by the time I was old enough to drive there wouldn't be any oil anymore. Kinda like the same crap being fed to kids today. I remember my Mom waking me up one morning to tell me President Carter had sent commandos to free the Hostages. Remember the Hostages? If you grew up in the 70's you do. I said, "Wow! Are they free now, Mom?" She said, "No, the helicopters crashed in the desert and our country is feeling pretty bad today." That's what I recall of the Carter Years. The country felt bad every day.

When Reagan, the greatest President since Lincoln, was elected in 1980, I felt a sense of something new. Change. Hope. Kinda like the slogans used by politicians today, only authentic. I remember watching Reagan on TV, larger than life, telling it like it is to the Soviets, to the OPEC monopolizers, to the rat bastids in Washington DC, etc. Watching Reagan rebuild the prestige of the United States was so exciting. I felt like I was seeing history unfold before my eyes, which of course it was. I remember coming out of college to a job market which was red-hot and moving fast.

By the time Bush 41 rolled around, I was somewhat disappointed that many changes which were expected, like the government operating on a balanced budget, were not looking they were going to happen. I believe the left wing liberals in Congress led by Tip O'Neill, Tom Foley, and such scoundrels were the main reason that true progress was thwarted. At this time, friends I had since high school and I found ourselves on opposite sides of a lot of issues. I had to patiently explain to friends that just because they saw someone on TV say that the Pentagon is the largest recipient of the Federal Budget doesn't make it true, since it is actually more like 19% while the vast majority is transfer payment entitlement spending like Social Security and Medicare. Friends of mine were gaga over "No Nukes" concerts, boycotting South Africa because of apartheid, supporting Amnesty International (mainly because we were Peter Gabriel fans) and other stuff which seemed real important at the time. I marched in Washington DC in the January cold in the March For Life, much to the puzzlement of friends.

Then came the Slick Willie years. My personal prosperity was taking off like a rocket, which I attribute to my drive and ambition and thanks also to the sensible policies of the Newt Gingrich Republicans who took over Congress in 1994. My absolute disgust with Democrats and their treasonous traitorous chaos-spreading prosperity-destroying ways would only grow with every April 15th when filing my income taxes, and with every new story of how the Clinton Administration had given away our ability to defend ourselves to the ChiComs in exchange for campaign contributions (bribes). I actually didn't think the Monica Lewinsky story was worth mentioning compared to the heinous atrocity of giving away America's ability to defend herself to our archenemies for campaign contributions (bribes). That was a an unforgivable sin, as I believe we still have not seen the disaster which will likely result from this huge betrayal.

I still talk all the time with friends and relatives who are left wing liberals, or who usually start out taking what sounds like a left wing liberal position until I ask them a few questions about what they really believe and it is revealed that they don't understand what they are saying. Happens all the time.

I have never registered as a Republican. Only as a member of the Conservative party, which got me visited personally by both the Democrat and Republican candidates for local office, like town supervisor or town magistrate (the guy who deals with my speeding tickets!). My Democrat and Republican registered neighbors never get a visit from either one.

[CKMD]

I logged on to Medialine and waited for buckpasser to tell me what I thought and what I believed in.

Damnit....you beat me to it!!!:)

I came to my political beliefs because New Facstrrrr, Pooned Tard, Bucky and others with their insanity keep me centered rather than shifting to either side.
Luckily...I don't have scroll past their ignorance anymore with the awesome ignore feature!

[Dap]

By experience, by observing life and cultures around the world is how I came to my political beliefs.

I think there are but two camps politically, those that believe it's all for one and one for all, and those that believe the world is out to take what's theirs.

I fall into the 3 Musketeers category. My observations are that such a country or society has more prosperity and happiness overall. Universal higher education and healthcare assures that every member contributes at his or her fullest.

For instance, in the United States, brilliant minds that have the potential to contribute a great deal to our culture are left behind or ignored when such a mind grows up poor and unable to afford university.

[Clever Login Name]

So, you're not D,R,I or even Green ... you're Socialist. Which is fine, if that's what you want to be ... just have the courage to acknowledge it.

[Dap]

So, you're not D,R,I or even Green ... you're Socialist. Which is fine, if that's what you want to be ... just have the courage to acknowledge it.

I suppose I am socialist then.

[Tripe Face]

It took me weeks to calm down from learning that the money I earned through hard work was being stolen from me and given to people who contribute nothing to society and a government that was totally out of control.


So the republicans were in charge when you got that first paycheck.

I always thought the Nixon administration was the worst case of people who contribute nothing to society and a government that was totally out of control.

[Lazlo Toth]

I'm not above a bribe - I'll vote for whoever's platform shows me the cold hard CASH.

So you're not a Republican or Democrat. You're a member of Congress.

[Lazlo Toth]

How did you arrive at your political beliefs?

Arrived? Who's arrived? I'm still on the journey.

[Kace]

As a kid, I saw Ronald Reagan as this cool old guy who could give good speeches. My parents were Democrat (not Reagan Democrat, but Democrat Democrat). So any negativitiy I needed to know about from Republicans, I could just look to Mom for. As I got older, I noticed that there were no decent political parties and both the Democrats and Republican seemed pretty interchangeable. Both did the same thing, it just depended on who you rooted for...kinda like Pro Wrestling, come to think of it.

Then came 1992 and I found myself enamored a bit with this fella named Ross Perot. Republicans didn't seem to like him and neither did Democrats (my parents included). I figured a guy like that running for President was appealing automatically as he was able to ruffle both sides and still garner some halfway decent attention. Watching the Vice Presidential Debate between Dan Quayle, Al Gore and James Stockdale however became the greatest political spectacle I could recall up to that point. I watched Stockdale hold his own and dismiss the theatrics of his opponents in a very whimsical way, only for the media guys and gals to talk about he didn't do too well afterwards. That night became pretty pivotal for me, not only in terms of being Independent, but also not being able to trust the media given its treatment of Stockdale after that debate. I also realized that in a political sense, I was going to be a vast minority with little chance of ever voting for anyone who'd win the Presidency. But I figured that when the time eventually came, I would go with who I thought should win instead of who could win.

And so when it was time to register for voting, I was asked if I were Democrat or Republican and I said, "No." With that, I became a registered Indy.

In 1996, I was able to participate in my first election (with an absentee ballot, no less). Mom thought I was off my rocker 'cause I went with Perot that year for President and Richard Petty (a Republican, for those keeping score) for State Senate. When Republicans started blaming me for Bob Dole not getting the Presidency, I had to remind them that I never saw him as an option to begin with. In fact, my, "second choice," that year was the guy I wound up voting for in 2000, Harry Browne (Libertarian).

So as far as the Presidency goes, I've went Reform, Libertarian and Democrat (granted the Democrat was more of a home state bias deal for Vice President...didn't care for any of the Presidential candidates). Eventually we'll get a Republican worth voting for...'course there was Ron Paul, but that never really panned out. Eh well, maybe in 2016 when McCain's either out of office or on the way out.

A lot of my political ideas have come from observation and my thoughts therein. Like the fact that I came up with supporting term limits for Congress people on my own, especially after hearing an argument against the idea from a friend who was a page in Washington, DC. Her argument wasn't very convincing and reeked more of, "I don't like Clinton and the Republicans are on the rebound," than anything else.

I also tend to be a bit challenging towards politicians who turn down debates against other candidates of third parties who also happen to be on the ballot as as well as incumbents in general. That really didn't come from an upbringing though if it did, I guess it would be from wherever I got my sense of paranoia from. Well, that and my sense of cynicism.

Now that I'm an adult, I have come to find Politics as a perversely fascinating form of entertainment and very rarely do I find myself really liking any of the candidates running for office. In fact, the only candidates I can think of who have been remotely appealing to me for President were Bill Richardson, Ron Paul and Wayne Allyn Root. I also keep hopin' Jesse Ventura'll run and again I'm probably in the minority on that one.

I just try not to be disrespectful to those who find themselves happy with being Democrat or Republican or whatnot, just as I hope they aren't disrespectful towards me for being Indy. I figure we all have some sense of commonality somewhere.

Oh...and hi, everyone.

[ShakAttack]

Oh...and hi, everyone.

Hi Kace! I like the new avatar. :thumbsup:

It's fun to read more than one-liners from you. I know when it comes to words -- you're more frugal than my old man!!! ;)

[ShakAttack]

I suppose I am socialist then.

...and nothing wrong with your stance. That's the greatness of this great nation -- we can express our individual political views without fear of losing our limbs.

[Vulcan]

I certainly didn't get it from my parents, because they were very careful to not give me a leaning one way or another.

Political leanings, like most things, are a function of core values. Your understanding and application of your core values go a long way toward how firmly rooted those ideals are.

On a rising spectrum of self-awareness, you have:

those who do what mommy and daddy did
those who want to self-identify with a group
those who take a stand on a single issue
those who examine their positions from a neutral stance
those who examine their core values, THEN seek positions
those who have a transformative experienceMuch of the rancor about political positions here is really a fight between people at different stages on the ladder. There are many pairs of opposites here at Open Line that may never agree, but have a respect for where the other one gets their opinion.

I would say that those coming into entry level jobs are around steps 2 and 3. Much fewer at 4. Rare are the people who register at #5, and they typically don't budge until something drastic happens. That's #6, and it can launch them back anywhere on the ladder. In her book The Story Factor (http://www.storydynamics.com/Articles/In_Society/factor.html), Annette Simmons writes about how those holding deeply ingrained stories will not let them go until replaced by a more powerful story. (A book I highly recommend for you active journalists, by the way...)

The most infuriating arguments are with those who cannot or will not see the logical conundrums that results from their held positions. You can write it off if it is merely an expression of a different core value, but it's dangerous when the person's own internal logic fails.

As for my story? I went through a very strong period of reflection, and also one of the most devious political theory professors on the planet. The man read three books a week for his adult life, and was a former federal investigator. He led a semester of hell called "Man and the State," a seminar class examining the role of the individual to society. I did well enough in his class that he invited me back for several years as an alum, to teach a 75-minute lecture on the difference between Truth and Honesty.

Each of the fourteen weeks had a topic, and a reading list. Every other week, you had to take a book from the list and be prepared to give a 10-minute talk on the theme of the book. Not a book report, but a theme report. As the arguments started to erupt, you had to stay internally consistent. If you didn't, the other students would score points nailing you (if the professor didn't first.)

My values were forged under that temperature and pressure -- and it was in that cauldron that I came to know who I was, and what I really stood for. The rest is application.

I think there are but two camps politically, those that believe it's all for one and one for all, and those that believe the world is out to take what's theirs.

And here is where I have a problem. You leave no room for those who believe that people, when acting in their own self-interests, contribute to society. You have created an artificial binary.

For the purposes of our "Man and the State" class, we classified three choices:

A-types, who do their own work and respect everyone else
B-types, who do no individual work but for the cooperative
C-types, who won't share until they get theirs.You've described the B and C types, but ignored the value of the A's. Those who are not free riders, celebrate individual achievement, and want to maintain a fair playing field because it allows for prosperity without being at another's' expense. (If you think life is a zero-sum game, that wealth is only amassed by making others poor, then you could never be an A-type, for example.)

My experience tells me that most of the progress we see in rising living standards around the world happens when you unleash an army of A-types into an economy, where they are free to pursue trade and where the rule of law enforces contracts fairly. Your experience may differ.

[Dap]

Ah, Vulcan, most cannot see that it is entirely self-serving to develop a high-achieving, prosperous society.

Imagine if you will what America would be like if every individual had the opportunity to a university education? Of course the individual would be better off. BUT. Selfishly, so would our entire society.

Socialism, if that's what we're talking about or if that's what I am, provides opportunity for everyone. How more individual can you get?

I think people confuse my stand with communism. That is not the case at all. Providing opportunity is one thing, forcing people to assume roles is another.

As I've stated in another thread, I've had visitors from Sweden this week. Sweden is very socialist, yet private property in terms of home ownership is very high, as is individuality. Swedish art and design, for example, (clothing, furniture and table top especially) flourishes under socialism.

[Lazlo Toth]

So it's kind of Ikea socialism, eh?

[Dap]

So it's kind of Ikea socialism, eh?

(Broad grin) YES! Don't you love their modular pieces :)

Very OT, if you own earlier pieces guard and pamper them. I guarantee you that your grandchildren and great grandchildren will either adore the pieces or get very rich selling them :)

[Vulcan]

Socialism, if that's what were talking about or if that's what I am, provides opportunity for everyone. How more individual can you get?

I think people confuse my stand with communism. That is not the case at all. Providing opportunity is one thing, forcing people to assume roles is another.

As I've stated in another thread, I've had visitors from Sweden this week. Sweden is very socialist, yet private property in terms of home ownership is very high, as is individuality. Swedish art and design, for example, (clothing, furniture and table top especially) flourishes under socialism.

There is something else Sweden has that we do not: cultural homogeneity. It's easier to foster the "social" shared elements of socialism when there is a national identity that is on par with family. That's why socialism works in a kibbutz, for example. The unit is small enough to discourage free-riders. You can see when someone is giving less than their share of effort. And that sense continues when everyone looks the same, sounds the same, and shares a strong culture.

[Vulcan]

Ah, Vulcan, most cannot see that it is entirely self-serving to develop a high-achieving, prosperous society.
...and while we both share the same aim, we differ on the mechanics of how to get there.

We may differ on the initial conditions
We may differ on the role of the individual
We may differ on the degree to which people find external motivation
We may differ on the role of culture in a political system
We may differ on the definition of "economic health."
We may differ on the priorities placed on "economic security" and "economic freedom."...but that doesn't give you the right to boil my position down to "greedy selfish bastards. (http://occamsrazr.com/2007/11/14/evil-greedy-stupid-sheep-4-modern-ways-to-win-an-argument/)" Nor have I called you a commie.

[HushHush]

I didn't read the rest of this - but I can tell you I didn't inherit my political beliefs from my parents. They're both Republicans - I'm a Democrat. And it's not so much a political belief for me - it's that the Democratic party resembles my own personal belief system the closest.

[Dap]

...and while we both share the same aim, we differ on the mechanics of how to get there.


We may differ on the initial conditions
We may differ on the role of the individual
We may differ on the degree to which people find external motivation
We may differ on the role of culture in a political system
We may differ on the definition of "economic health."
We may differ on the priorities placed on "economic security" and "economic freedom."...but that doesn't give you the right to boil my position down to "greedy selfish bastards. (http://occamsrazr.com/2007/11/14/evil-greedy-stupid-sheep-4-modern-ways-to-win-an-argument/)" Nor have I called you a commie.

Perdono? When did I call you greedy and selfish?

[Vulcan]

Perdono? When did I call you greedy and selfish?
It is the logical extension of the duality you defined above:

I think there are but two camps politically, those that believe it's all for one and one for all, and those that believe the world is out to take what's theirs.
So -- since I don't follow a socialist agenda for progress, that must mean I'm only out for me, right?

You're the one who divided the world into two camps.

I'd be happy to allow you to explain how I don't fit in that mold, but I can only go on what you write here.

[Bandit]

If I may offer a few thoughts (not nearly as sharp as Vulcan's or Dap's, but I'll still give it a whirl) on the notion of "socialism" vs. "greedy selfish bastards," I think those are the communications tripwires that PR types in the political parties have used to divide people (and thus "control" them in a sense).

On the one hand, if I believe political orthodoxy that says that government is good and can solve a lot of ills (say in this case high gas prices), I risk looking at other solutions that people could apply to the problem with no government intervention (instead of taxing oil companies, how about encouraging car pooling or rewarding conservation?).

On the other hand, if I believe that government always messes things up and should stay out of the way, I ignore the reality that the free market does not manufacture every human need in sufficient quantities (two examples are health care and education). Taking the issue of health care, I think too many people have to ask the wrong questions when interfacing with the system (can I afford this? - will my insurance cover this?, etc.).

Too much of our political discourse has become about the orthodoxies expressed in one view or the other. This is wrongheaded, in my view. If I start with an imposed solution to a perceived problem, I am at great peril of not seeing and understanding the scope and depth of that problem. So the net effect of this is that nothing gets done to solve the problem.

So what we're left with is a broad impression that people are either greedy & selfish (because they are perceived as not caring about the inequities in the health care system), or are soft-headed liberals (who ignore the value of working hard, paying as you go and finding ways to cut back when prices rise instead of looking for a government windfall or bailout).

These messaging tripwires also cause us to fight each other instead of keeping our eyes on what the federal government & two parties are up to -- which is probably the prime reason why they're there in the first place.

[Dap]

It is the logical extension of the duality you defined above:


So -- since I don't follow a socialist agenda for progress, that must mean I'm only out for me, right?

You're the one who divided the world into two camps.

I'd be happy to allow you to explain how I don't fit in that mold, but I can only go on what you write here.

Do you think I only think of others and not of myself? Not at all. I don't care who you are, human beings have an innate programme to look out for themselves first. I contend that all for one, one for all is a better way of doing just that.

Who wouldn't want a surgeon who earned his way into a medicine with study and his mind rather than a not-so-bright chap who was well-heeled and well-connected?

ETA: Bandit, see my reply to Vulcan. Who's to say socialists aren't greedy selfish bastards, too? As Vulcan said previously, before attacking me, the end goal is the same. A prosperous country can only make your life, and your children's lives better. It is simply a difference of opinion of how to get there.

[TVMattNYC]

I was a teenager during the Reagan years. Growing up in the Rust Belt, with eight uncles, five great-uncles, and two grandfathers who were steelworkers (my father, an engineer, the only college-educated professional in the family), you registered "Democrat", without even thinking about it. But my parents were definitely REAGAN Democrats. I saw first-hand the effects of a corrupt union, and I watched as my high-school dropout "mill hunk" uncles ridiculed my father for his college education while they made THREE TIMES what he did. (A little economic reference here. Circa 1977, my uncles were pulling down more than 70K/year while my dad was barely making 20K. In today's dollars, that's $252,349.79 versus $72,099.94). And don't start with the "but it was a dangerous job" BS. Yes, it was. But the uncle who was making "only" $252K in today's dollars was PUSHING A BROOM. Literally. His United Steelworkers of America union job involved sweeping up the break room. Nothing more.

Anyway, it's little wonder that I turned into an Alex P. Keaton, much to the delight of my Democratic (and closeted Republican) parents. Ronald Reagan was my hero, and I became virulently pro-business and anti-union.

All this time, my Catholic faith deepened. My family was very active in the Church, and it was a cornerstone of our family life (not that we were Jesus freaks, or anything like that). My mother instilled in all of us kids a profound respect for others' feelings, and meted out punishments (and demanded we follow through with apologies) if we slighted other people.

Of course, at the time I was going through quite a bit of inner turmoil, what with that whole GAY thing I was busy denying.

Fast-forward to my first real post-college job in this industry. My pro-business honeymoon was over, and I learned all too quickly that my new spouse was an abusive one. After working side-by-side with UNION members in my new industry ... as an outsider ... I learned in short order how NECESSARY unions really are, and how ****ed you are in this industry without one.

Meanwhile, I started my coming-out process.

So. After all these years, this is how you cook up a liberal gay Republican Catholic: One part economic conservatism, one part religion, one part workers' rights, two parts love, a dash of *****iness, and you have the blessing that is TVMattNYC. :D

[Sigonfile]

It happened in 1993...I was abducted by some Clinton supporters and taken to a cave in Tennessee. There I was stripped of my clothing and made to wear a "I Love Arkansas" t-shirt. I was then forced to eat "grits" and chew tobacco. I was then "waterboarded" until I could only think of words ending in "ing". I dream of donkeys and white haired women now and don't go out except election day...because they are watching me all the time.

[Union Label]

I've always tried to maintain a healthy level of skepticism to shape my political beliefs. I've been around long enough now to have voted in 8 presidential elections and to some extent covered 7 of them. I've seen plenty of examples of what happens when one side of the political spectrum gains too much power. This path always leads to corruption and a bunker mentality which is never a good way to operate an effective government.

I'm prone to cast my vote in favor of the candidate or issue that tend to take a middle of the road approach. I try to not only to vote for candidates who favor my viewpoints but I also look for ones who will be able to negotiate effective compromises.

[ShakAttack]

Well my parents and especially my father and grand father were EXTREMELY bigoted. My father was the Virginia campaign manager for the 1968 George Wallace for President and he fit the bill perfectly. About that time, we were in the family car going somewhere when I waved to a classmate that was on the sidewalk....who happened to be black. I thought I was going to have to walk home that day. Having gone to a well integrated high school, I thought nothing of waving to a classmate, black or otherwise. It was the parting point for us. He saw that I was not going to be made in his image and he left a few years later. We seldom communicated after that. I was a republican then but had to switch when Tricky Dick was in power. Living in DC gives you a whole different perspective on those national political crisis. I then switched to vote for Regan. NOW I am a Democrat opposed to the war ....FROM THE START, I might add and am disgusted with all of the current offerings but will likely vote for McCain...cause the other two aint doing it for me. I am an issues person, not a party or personality one.

I guess there's no unselfish way of saying this, but it's kinda therapeutic to hear other Medialiners openly expose and discuss their parents' bigotry.

I, for one, personally had a huge problem with the self-serving mindset of my folks. Anyone who would ever question their blind Zionism would instantly be branded as anti-Semitic. The sad part is, that's what they tried to blindly instill in their children. Fortunately for my parents, out of their five offsprings, two remained loyal to their teachings. Unfortunately, the other three not only managed to break out of that instilled mindset -- but downright questioned their bigotry and distanced themselves from that closed-mindedness.

Needless to mention, my parents were responsible, caring, and successful parents. It's just their bigotry that became obvious as we brothers began to grow older and start to question everything we were taught to believe and practice.

[DoctorDepends]

I learned it all from 2:30.

[buckpasser]

I was born a Missouri River Valley Catholic Democrat. My grandmother told me to vote Democrat because that's how her Irish Catholic Democrat people before her voted, and so on.

We are all loyal Democrats to this day. Our family votes as a bloc. Our stance on issues is left of center, with liberal views on Social Security, healthcare, and the war. We have received the benefits of government spending, which makes it easier to be liberal if you ask me.

Our family is a small business family. That, combined with an education in economics, puts that issue toward the top of my list. Experience keeps it there.


Go down the list of issues, and you'll find a mixed bag of beliefs. My area of the country produces a strong respect for the second amendment. My education surrounded me with conservatives, but my college, "experience" highlighted my liberal views on social issues.

Socially liberal, fiscally conservative thanks to family, education, and experience.

[Ralphie the buffalo]

Dad was a Henry (Scoop) Jackson guy. Mom wasn't interested in politics
I spent a lot of years growing up in in a very conservative Colorado Springs, especially around military installations.

I had some very influential teachers in high school. One was an ordained Baptist minister who was a self-made millionaire. He spoke fluent Arabic. The guy was university professor who taught some high school for fun. I took economics and college prep European history from him. He was a bundle of contradictions (mostly good) He encouraged you to step out of your comfort zone and learn about things you didn't necessarily agree with.

Then I spent some time in school in The People's Republic of Boulder.
I read George Orwell, Ayn Rand, PJ O'Rourke, Hunter S Thompson and Robert Ringer during my formative years.
Those who know me would say have an unconventional streak and never swim with the tide.

(this was EDITED to complete an unfinished post)

[Sigonfile]

It all started with a trip to KFC for some hot-wings. I looked up and saw this billboard.

http://i127.photobucket.com/albums/p150/RCHSTLMO_photos/2224.jpg

[TTBoy]

http://www.geocities.com/california_state_unfair2002/the-short-bus.jpg

[Fire Hydrogant]

For me it was religion.

I was brought up in a non-religious, non-church-going family. My agnostic parents never abused or molested me, and I've always seen them as basically good, caring people. I'm not tremendously successful, but I think I turned out to be a reasonably productive member of society: Always had a job, and never killed, robbed or raped anyone. Republicans/conservatives always seem to be the ones who are ultra-religious and seem to think that anyone who is either not a Christian or doesn't believe in God is evil, and that they are better than people like me. I was especially turned off when Reagan and the Republicans tried to push that prayer-in-public-schools crap on us all, trying to argue that somehow that's the reason why we have more crime now than we did in the 1950s. What a crock.

So naturally I gravitate towards the Democrats/liberals, who tend to me more open-minded and tolerant of people like myself.

[Tippster]

Wow, it's hard to imagine how two people with such different political views got together. I but it made for some pretty interesting dinnertime conversation.
The Greatful Dead?

[Sultanosurf]

By voting in every local and national election since I was eligible, and having to live with the consequences...

Interesting detail from the rest of you folks.

[Kace]

Hi, everyone.

I figured this would be good to bump, so those unfamiliar or have forgotten could give this another read and possibly add on to it.

It's like a collection of really cool origin stories and it's interesting to see how it all plays out with conventions going on and the Election soon on the horizon.

It also inspired me to start up a similar topic at another board.

[tater]

Okay I throw myself into it...

My dad is a die hard republican and his dad is a die hard democrat...my mother is more of a libertarian and the majority of my family is Catholic and pro-life. I base a lot of my politcal decisions off my faith, I'm pro-life but I also believe in helping others in need (though not by being force to pay through the government). Then once I started getting paid and saw a lot of my money go to some FICA guy I turned moreso into a conservative libertarian. Basically I reject about all of the Democrats policies and about half of the Republicans.

[amabala]

My first real paycheck.


I had worked like a dog all summer and had already mentally spent the money I thought it was going to be. When I got my check it was about two thirds of that.

I threw a nutter and went screaming into payroll demanding an explanation.

It took me weeks to calm down from learning that the money I earned through hard work was being stolen from me and given to people who contribute nothing to society and a government that was totally out of control.

That was a long time ago and my feelings have only intensified.
It's nothing more than criminal extortion


Watch, America: Freedom to Fascism on google video. Then you'll really be PISSED OFF !!

[Lazlo Toth]

I repeat my answer from last February. It still holds true.



How did you arrive at your political beliefs?

Arrived? Who's arrived? I'm still on the journey.

[Sigonfile]

Another idiotic thread started by one of Medialine's more idiotic posters.