CBM vs. AMS Seal

[Schwenneker]

'From the Right' brought this up in another thread and I thought it would be a good subject for a new thread.

I mentioned this earlier. We have a very good met in our shop with her seal. She is an MSU grad. She's also one of the better forecasters I've worked with, and that includes one or two four year degree types. She will never be able to take the CBM test.

I know this was brought up before the test came, but I think it is time to revisit the subject now that so many people have taken it. Should all current AMS seal holders be given the chance to try for the CBM? Let the can of worms pics flow...

[From the Right]

Schwenneker, thanks for bringing this up. I'm interested to hear what others think. My opinion is the AMS has now created some confusion by allowing both seals to be available and offered. I would suggest that when the new seal program began....NO "old" ams seals be given. I would only have the CBM seal available. I would make ALL "old" seal holders eligible to take the CBM exam and get the "new" seal for a reasonable amount of time....say by January '09.

I too work with a great forecaster that has the AMS seal but isn't eligible for the CBM. The only difference between he and I is that I earned my "old" AMS seal a couple years earlier...that's it. I think that's wrong.

I believe the AMS holds a great deal of power, probably too much power, when it comes to many of us getting jobs. Talented, educated people are excluded because some "pointy heads" at the AMS didn't like their tape or for whatever reason couldn't get into the AMS club. Regardless of what some might say, there are many ND's that flat out won't consider someone without a seal. I believe people shouldn't be excluded from getting the all important seal simply because they began the process a little later than someone else. Simply put, anyone that was awarded an AMS seal, should have been eligible to earn the new seal. Otherwise, this is changing the rules in the middle of the game.

[MoistureFluxCapacitor]

The AMS has set a standard for the CBM, IMHO, to purposefully "weed out" the MSU folks from thier midst.

They have chosen a course that will ultimately reduce the number of AMS members...and if they keep raising fees, those numbers will be cut even more as those in the TV biz struggle with stagnant salaries and fewer jobs.

ND's are starting to move away from the "Sealholder" standard and going back to effective communicators who have a solid educational background. Research is driving the change...since the viewing public puts little value in whether or not someone has their seals. (The public never really did give seals much value...ND's and Promotions were the main drivers there).

So...to answer your question...NO...the AMS can do whatever they want to do. You either meet their standard or you don't. And in the interest of full disclosure...I'm an MSU BMP grad...I have my NWA but do not have my AMS despite having the required AMS coursework. I'm not happy with them as an organization and have chosen to let my membership lapse. If a ND decides not to give me a job because I don't have a seal...then I don't need to work for them.

Last time I checked, the main anchors didn't have to have a Seal of Approval from the Associated Press to read news...and our sports guy didn't have to pay exhorbitent fees to ESPN in order to read sports on the air.

[south side of the sky]

I had this long typed out reply here bashing the AMS and their stupid CBM program but then realized, I really don't care. It sucks, its stupid, its unfair for some. But if your station pays for it, or pays for further education, just go for it. If not, I sympathize :hug:

[qryche]

When the CBM started in 2005, the AMS did create two "grandfather clauses".

The first...anyone who had an active, old AMS seal as of the end of 2004 was allowed to upgrade to a CBM by taking the exam, regardless of whether or not they had a degree. Anyone who falls under this category has until the end of 2008 to upgrade, or they can not get a CBM.

Second...the AMS seal itself will no longer be awarded at the end of 2008. That lag time was created to allow those who were in non-degree programs as of the start of 2005 to still receive a seal of some sort...and give them ample notice to upgrade their educational path if they so chose.

Basically, there should be few who the rules were "changed on". Anyone who has been in school the past few years should have gone for a degree IF they were interested in AMS certification.

[Golfball_Size_Hail]

Can someone please count the number of AMS vs. NWA, or AMS vs. CBM threads. There needs to be one universal b*tch fest thread where people can go.

[wxboy14]

One thing that is a little interesting -- when the rules were very relaxed (early 80s?) a lot of broadcasters received the AMS seal without any type of the current educational requirements (ie, even without a degree, there wasn't a minimum hour requirement in core classes).

A lot of the then bigger market personalities got the seals during that period (Al Roker & Storm Field, as examples from the NYC area).

In all of this reorganization, etc, there has never been any type of requirement to force older AMS sealholders to match the current educational requirements.

I understand the CBM was designed to weed out certain types, and the current push is for as much education as possible. I have no problem with the grandfather clause for the AMS seal applying to anyone who got it when there were educational requirements...but I think it is weird the AMS didn't go a step further.

[Bombogenesis]

I think the education requirement combined with the test is crap... it should be one or the other...

If you have their definition of a four-year degree then you get to apply for the CBM... if you don't have the degree but you can make a 75% or better on the test... then guess what... you should be able to get the CBM...

It is not fair to exclude a perfectly competent meteorologist from getting the CBM just because he or she may have went to MSU or another program that does not require calculus...

Let's take for example a chief met in Des Moines, IA (no name is needed because you probably know who I am talking about) who has a MSU certificate, but is in my opinion and many others the brightest radar mind in the country and one of the best forecasters I know. If he were just now getting out of school, he would never be able to obtain the CBM and would be looked at by some in the biz as incompetent, which we know he isn't... however, since he already had an AMS seal he was able to upgrade... if it weren't for that, he wouldn't be "certified."

[qryche]

Understood, but such a great forecasting mind would hopefully be intelligent enough to realize that, if you are going into this business and want a "seal", you will have to have a degree. That has been known for almost four years. More than enough time to adjust ones sights. Hey, I think I have a great advertising mind, but I did not go into marketing. That's my fault, not the system's.

The merits, pros/cons of having the CBM or not is a different argument...and anyone who is interested in tv weather certainly has the opportunity to enter the business and flourish "seal-free", although it may limit their opportunities.

[Golfball_Size_Hail]

I hear that, I wish I kind of went into marketing/advertising.

[Cumulo-nimbus]

I hear that, I wish I kind of went into marketing/advertising.

We'd probably be making a lot more money if we did that! :)

[Golfball_Size_Hail]

Let's start our own business.:cheers:

[Golfball_Size_Hail]

We'll only hire only people without degrees.

[qryche]

The key is to hire people who are smarter than you. At least that what our bosses must be doing...why else would they look so stupid sometimes?

[WXDUDE]

Understood, but such a great forecasting mind would hopefully be intelligent enough to realize that, if you are going into this business and want a "seal", you will have to have a degree.

That still doesn't address the issue of those who figure out what they want to do with their career AFTER they graduate from college...or very near graduation...and don't have a degree in meteorology. That is why the AMS came up with a solution to meet an educational requirement for those who didn't have a degree but wanted to get a seal. Now, with the changes in place and the "old" seal being phased out, that option is going away.

[Mayhem]

There is still the NWS seal, and that is good enough for most news directors.

The truth is though, that if you decide you want to become a meteorologist AFTER college, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage and you need to get the education required. You can't just say, "I want to be a meteorologist" but not do the work required to get there. Do I think you need all the calculus background to be an effective forecaster... no. That being said, there should be some advantage given to those who put in the work to get that background.
I view the CBM not as a way to weed people out, but as a way to reward those who put in the extra work.

[SureFireWeather]

When I interned at NBC 10 in Philly in 2002, I got a chance to meet Kathy Orr. (She is now the Chief at KYW 3 in Philadelphia.)

Several years earlier, she found herself in the position of someone working as a weathercaster with dual B.S. degrees in Journalism and marketing ... but she fell in love with the weather and wanted to become a meteorologist.

Although it was probably inconvenient and a big sacrifice, she spent the next five years knocking out her B.S. in Meteorology at SUNY Oswego while working as a weathercaster in Syracuse. It paid off, she's been very successful in market #4 for years.

(She is a CBM sealholder, but that wasn't my point.)

[WXDUDE]

There is still the NWS seal, and that is good enough for most news directors.

Um, that would be the NWA seal. I don't think the National Weather Service issues seals.
As for the "rewarding those for their hard work"...what a load! It should symbolize and reward one's knowledge and their ability to effectively communicate the science of meteorology to the masses, degree or not.
I was several years out of college when I finally figured out what I really wanted to pursue. Going back to school full-time was not an option and frankly, gaining on-air experience while picking up classes from USDA was probably a better way to go for someone in my position. Do I like the fact that the AMS is pushing aside those who are late bloomers? No way! Even if they put in extra work to get that educational background, now anything short of a BS is not good enough.
Having said all that...it's JUST a seal. I've always been more of a fan of the NWA and their seal process. Look---now even the AMS has gone to a recertification process the NWA has had all along! At least they got that part right.

[Bombogenesis]

Lets just face it... the AMS board did this to stick it to MSU grads... all you have to do is look at the majority of the board at the time and if you know them well you know a good many of them were MSU bashers...

[Bob Sakamano]

I recall when the possibility of a new seal was discussed at the broadcast conference in Williamsburg back in '02. It was a pretty heated discussion from what I remember.

[mountain guru]

Even that attitude is vanishing. You will find that the composition of the AMS broadcast leadership is also changing. The current AMS broadcast chair is one of the most active members in the NWA, and one of the key people responsible for beefing up the standards for the NWA seal in the early 90s. He was also one of the first to get the CBM. Because of his efforts with the NWA, it eventually showed the "weakness" in the old AMS seal program standards.

The AMS seal only required the 20 hours of met classes (12 core courses included) and a tape of three weathercasts. No on air or on the job experience was ever required, no test needed to be taken, and once you got the seal, no recertification was required. You only needed to send in a check each year to keep the seal.
(BTW: From a cost point of view, the NWA has a more reasonable fee structure, only requiring recertification once every three years, as opposed to annually.)

The NWA requires at least a few years of on air experience before you can apply. Then you take a written proctored test, and then you submit a tape. It raised the "ante" for the AMS, and after years of haggling, the AMS finally had to give in, and upgrade the AMS seal program, creating the CBM, as well as adding mandatory continuing education for both the AMS and the CBM seals.

It's not about closing the door on MSU. It's all about making those of us who want to present a TV weathercast, better at what we do. Anytime you raise the standards of a program, it increases the quality of the product. If you have a passion for what you do, you will do whatever it takes to qualify for those standards.

As for the person who mentioned that a certain chief in DSM would not qualify for the CBM if he applied for it today? I would bet that Mac would have registered for and completed all the necessary courses to qualify for the CBM up the road at Ames, because he is the type of fellow that lets nothing stand in his way.

[QVectorman]

There is still the NWS seal, and that is good enough for most news directors.

The truth is though, that if you decide you want to become a meteorologist AFTER college, you are putting yourself at a disadvantage and you need to get the education required. You can't just say, "I want to be a meteorologist" but not do the work required to get there. Do I think you need all the calculus background to be an effective forecaster... no. That being said, there should be some advantage given to those who put in the work to get that background.
I view the CBM not as a way to weed people out, but as a way to reward those who put in the extra work.

I think the root of this problem is there are people out there that declare themselves meteorologists even though they do not have a degree. If management would open their eyes and read resumes and be HONEST with the viewers and cg people as "weathercaster" or "meteorologist" then this would not be as big of an issue (we all know that will never happen :D ). We wouldn't have so much emphasis on getting a seal to delineate ourselves from weathercasters. I agree with Mayhem those of us that have spent 4 years of hell in college should be allowed some kind of way to show we are atmospheric scientists and not someone who walked in off the street or came from the news side and said hey I think I want to be a "meteorologist" today. I can't just one day open up a clinic and say "I am a doctor of medicine" this afternoon let me do open heart surgery on people.....I need to go to college and pass a medical exam (and that still doesn't weed out the morons). I can't call myself a chemist just because I mixed up some fertilizer to put on my yard this afternoon or I read the ingredients on the bag. So just b/c someone talks about the weather or looks at statistical models how does that qualify them as an atmospheric scientist/meteorologist....someone who truly understands the processes of the atmosphere. That's why they give grades in college, if you don't pass the class that means you don't know your stuff, thus you don't qualify for your degree. If this was as prevalent in other fields (medical, law, chemical, civil engineers, etc.) as it is in meteorology we would have a lot of problems....dead people...false imprisonment (hired an idiot lawyer), buildings falling down,etc. etc. So why do we allow it in TV? The AMS is trying to set a standard in our field like the bar does for lawyers, medical boards for doctors, civil engineers. So that our profession does not keep getting degraded by ppl that hop on the TV and rip and read or worst just wing it and then we get the bad rap "weather ppl never know what the heck is going on". Yes, we do bust it's part of the science, but there are those out there that make it worse on our profession, that at times could have easily saved a bust by knowing and seeing a dry slot on WV and knowing there was no moisture left for storms...instead they go on and say storms continuing overnight :frustrated: and risk of svr wx and nothing ever happened the rest of the night, duhhh!!! I personally work with someone like this...they rip and read...or the other option at times :whistle: and many do in this part of the country and it just adds to the tarnished reputation of degreed mets that "really have no idea of what they are doing...throwing darts at a board" YES there may be some ppl who have learned enough to be good forecasters...but those people are few and far between and you could probably only name a handful in America. I will admit just because you are degreed doesn't mean you can forecast...I've seen freshman come into college and out forecast world renowned professors...but they know the mathematics inside and out...forecasting is part experience and part gut instinct with some other stuff mixed in there. Thus, MSU certificate holders may forecast better than some degreed mets. I haven't come across an MSU'er yet that could explain to me the thermodynamical processes and physics that take place when a supercell splits into a right and left mover and why the left mover in most cases deteriorates. And yes...I can answer it correctly for you as should most degreed mets.

ps I'm not trying to make enemies on here this is a forum to state ideas and thoughts and these are my thoughts and I am open to criticism which is expected but I will say I am not here to personally attack any of you who are not degreed mets

[portinfru]

As the original post was saying, there is a small subset of people (myself included) for whom the timing of the changes made it impossible to follow the rules... and this has nothing to do with the quality of the education or forecaster.

I graduated in 2003 with a minor in operational meteorology, then did the rest of the coursework by the end of 2004. But because I was going the "non-degree" route, I had to wait the 3 years required to apply for AMS membership. That put me at 2006, taking me past the point where I can upgrade to the CBM without going back and getting a full BS.

Could I have gotten the BS while I was in school? Yes, but it wouldn't have been in meteorology, it would have been in geography, which housed the met department. So it wouldn't have given me any more of an education in meteorology, but the AMS would accept it.

So, because of the timing, I can't qualify... but anybody who followed the exact same path 2 years earlier (or took extra non-met geography classes) can. I'm all for weeding out slackers, but the broadcast board should also be willing to consider case-by-case exceptions for those who were screwed by the timing of the CBM program. Both my chief and a competing chief (who has a met in the same boat) have gone to bat for me with no luck. All I want is one chance to take the test... is that too much to ask?

End of rant.