The future of online news reporting? [Archive]

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 08:59 AM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Show me a thousand crap freshman essays and then say, "hey, this literacy thing is all overblown." So that was a college newscast at the other end of that link? That's strange, it looked to me like a commercial effort by a newspaper. Where did you see that she's a student doing an assignment in school to hone her skills?

I wonder what kind of grade she got on that.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 10:02 AM

Hey Spike
Why don't you post a link to your own work so we can all see what a real piece is supposed to look like.

The Mockingbird

Feb 5th 2007, 10:20 AM

Well, why don't you, while we're at it?

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 10:38 AM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Hey Spike
Why don't you post a link to your own work so we can all see what a real piece is supposed to look like.It's not about me, Michael. I'm not trying to sell my work to stations with wild, unfounded claims about saving money and increasing their quality. It wouldn't matter if I were the worst photog in the world; it still wouldn't change the fact that your program sucks.

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 11:22 AM

Originally posted by Spike:
It's not about me, Michael. I'm not trying to sell my work to stations with wild, unfounded claims about saving money and increasing their quality. Well then, can I? I mean if Mikey can do it, why not me?

My first wild unfounded claim will be that the GM will get laid more and look better naked using my program.... graemlins/eusa_shifty.gif

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 11:44 AM

Originally posted by Spike:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Hey Spike
Why don't you post a link to your own work so we can all see what a real piece is supposed to look like.It's not about me, Michael. I'm not trying to sell my work to stations with wild, unfounded claims about saving money and increasing their quality. It wouldn't matter if I were the worst photog in the world; it still wouldn't change the fact that your program sucks.[/QUOTE]Its not about your photography. Its about your willingness to offer your critiques of everyone else's work. And you are not an 'innocent bystander' here. You are supposed to be (I suppose) in this business. So lets see what it is you actually produce that is so much better that what I (or this young woman in fact) is offering.

So please.... put up... or.....

[ February 05, 2007, 12:45 PM: Message edited by: Rosenblum ]

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 02:23 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Its not about your photography. Its about your willingness to offer your critiques of everyone else's work. And you are not an 'innocent bystander' here. You are supposed to be (I suppose) in this business. So lets see what it is you actually produce that is so much better that what I (or this young woman in fact) is offering.

So please.... put up... or.....We've been over this. This is the same argument as saying that you can't discuss your political leaders if you've never held office yourself, or that you can't discuss a sports team if you've never played the game in question. I don't have to "put up" anything to have and express an opinion.

In other words, no matter how hard you try to make this about me, your system will still suck. Seeing my work won't change that.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 02:30 PM

I think you are hiding something, my friend.
I think you are just an incompetent blowhard who is afraid, perhaps properly so, that he is going to lose his job.

If you wish to criticize the quality of what the VJs produce, please show us what your conventional work looks like.

Please.

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 02:39 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
I think you are just an incompetent blowhard who is afraid, perhaps properly so, that he is going to lose his job. "Properly so"? I disagree. Yes, he may lose his job to a VJ but only if his upper management is a bunch of incompetent boobs who have a history of hiring numerologists and believing in fairy tales to improve ratings. That would hardly be worthy of the term "proper".

Sounds more like you, with your ivy league education, are pissed off that you have been backed into a corner and called on your BS-ery by a lowly photog of all things. And not just one, but many. On multiple websites. Are they ALL wrong Michael? ALL of them?

Somehow I doubt it.

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 02:42 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
I think you are hiding something, my friend.
I think you are just an incompetent blowhard who is afraid, perhaps properly so, that he is going to lose his job.And here you have finally revealed the real reason you so badly want to know about me: to shut me up by going after my job. I post my work, then my supervisor gets an earful about how I'm misbehaving on message boards, right? How many people have you gone after, Michael?

If I have to post examples of my work to be able to have an opinion, then I expect you not to vote in any future elections. After all, you can't have an opinion unless you have held office, right?

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 02:48 PM

Originally posted by News Is Broken:
"Properly so"? I disagree. Yes, he may lose his job to a VJ but only if his upper management is a bunch of incompetent boobs who have a history of hiring numerologists and believing in fairy tales to improve ratings. That would hardly be worthy of the term "proper".You misunderstood him. That was a threat. He tried it for a while with NYC Street, also, and when Street joined the discussion here this time around he started calling him by a first name trying to "out" him on the board. When he can't hold his own in an argument, he resorts to intimidation tactics.

How do I know he didn't mean it the other way? Because he has consistently courted photographers, telling them that they would be the ones who would make his system work. If it works the way he says it will, then a photog's job would be perfectly safe in a converted newsroom as he simply becomes a VJ.

[ February 05, 2007, 03:49 PM: Message edited by: Spike ]

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 02:58 PM

Originally posted by Spike:
You misunderstood him. That was a threat. He tried it for a while with NYC Street, also, and when Street joined the discussion here this time around he started calling him by a first name trying to "out" him on the board. When he can't hold his own in an argument, he resorts to intimidation tactics.
Ahh of course, how could I have not seen that one coming? I'm telling you, I'm having one of those days today.

Well dammit if it's video he wants and you don't want to be "outed" then post a YouTube video of your dog licking himself. That would STILL be better than most of the VJ sh!t I've ever seen.

[ February 05, 2007, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: News Is Broken ]

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 03:00 PM

Originally posted by Spike:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
I think you are hiding something, my friend.
I think you are just an incompetent blowhard who is afraid, perhaps properly so, that he is going to lose his job.And here you have finally revealed the real reason you so badly want to know about me: to shut me up by going after my job. I post my work, then my supervisor gets an earful about how I'm misbehaving on message boards, right? How many people have you gone after, Michael?

If I have to post examples of my work to be able to have an opinion, then I expect you not to vote in any future elections. After all, you can't have an opinion unless you have held office, right?[/QUOTE]as I suspected.
Incompetent blowhard.

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 03:28 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
as I suspected.
Incompetent blowhard.Still not biting. And your system still wrecks newsrooms.

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 03:30 PM

Gee... I thought for sure the YouTube bit in my last post would have gotten a few laughs...tough crowd!

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 03:57 PM

Originally posted by Spike:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
as I suspected.
Incompetent blowhard.Still not biting. And your system still wrecks newsrooms.[/QUOTE]I think rather it is your poor work that wrecks newsrooms.

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 04:07 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spike:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
as I suspected.
Incompetent blowhard.Still not biting. And your system still wrecks newsrooms.[/QUOTE]I think rather it is your poor work that wrecks newsrooms.[/QUOTE]Now come on Mike, fight fair. At worst, Spike's "poor work" would only wreck ONE newsroom. If he truly were an "incompetent blowhard" as you say then I would expect he wouldn't give a damn about this business and would let guys like you do whatever you like to it. I think we can all safely say that this is not the case, therefore it's only logical to deduce that Spike is anything but an "ignorant blowhard" that produces "poor work". If he was, he wouldn't care about you or your VJ's.

Yes? No? Maybe? Bueller?

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 04:26 PM

Originally posted by News Is Broken:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Spike:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
as I suspected.
Incompetent blowhard.Still not biting. And your system still wrecks newsrooms.[/QUOTE]I think rather it is your poor work that wrecks newsrooms.[/QUOTE]Now come on Mike, fight fair. At worst, Spike's "poor work" would only wreck ONE newsroom. If he truly were an "incompetent blowhard" as you say then I would expect he wouldn't give a damn about this business and would let guys like you do whatever you like to it. I think we can all safely say that this is not the case, therefore it's only logical to deduce that Spike is anything but an "ignorant blowhard" that produces "poor work". If he was, he wouldn't care about you or your VJ's.

Yes? No? Maybe? Bueller?[/QUOTE]Ok. he can only wreck one newsroom. as for blowhard. for sure. as for incompetent, I wait to see his work.

how's that?

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 04:36 PM

Notice how instead of dealing with the topic at hand, which is the poor quality of a particular newspaper's attempt at television and whether that is representative of "the future of online news reporting," Michael instead tries to divert attention to something that has nothing to do with this topic. It's just like when people in the political threads start talking about Bush, and someone comes back with "But! Clinton! What about Clinton!"

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 04:44 PM

Originally posted by Spike:
Notice how instead of dealing with the topic at hand, which is the poor quality of a particular newspaper's attempt at television and whether that is representative of "the future of online news reporting," Michael instead tries to divert attention to something that has nothing to do with this topic. It's just like when people in the political threads start talking about Bush, and someone comes back with "But! Clinton! What about Clinton!"you mean like injecting the vj discussion into a kuralt thread?

News Is Broken

Feb 5th 2007, 04:52 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Ok. he can only wreck one newsroom.Alright. See, we're making progress. :D

Now, I have a way to settle this that won't require Spike to "out himself" and should be satisfactory to both sides. Ready?

The way to settle this debate once and for all is to post a link to a story that could not have been done better by a traditional 2 man crew! Isn't that the crux of your argument, that a gaggle of VJ's means better news stories than a handful of traditional crews at a reduced cost? Well, humor me. I'm a bit slow. You'll need to show me how that's possible.

Why does Spike need to show us his work before you'll back up your claims? He's not the one saying the sky is lime green and then insulting everyone who disagrees. It is you who claim traditional crews are a relic, not us.

So how about it you two? Are we agreed? Would this settle it?

[ February 05, 2007, 05:54 PM: Message edited by: News Is Broken ]

cameragod

Feb 5th 2007, 05:09 PM

Ironically I shot, cut and voiced this (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=2135476365027281417) VJ style in only 40 min. See if you can tell the quality difference between the 3CCD handycam and the XD cam cameras even on the net.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 06:47 PM

Originally posted by News Is Broken:
<blockquote>quote:<hr />Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Ok. he can only wreck one newsroom.Alright. See, we're making progress. :D

Now, I have a way to settle this that won't require Spike to "out himself" and should be satisfactory to both sides. Ready?

The way to settle this debate once and for all is to post a link to a story that could not have been done better by a traditional 2 man crew! Isn't that the crux of your argument, that a gaggle of VJ's means better news stories than a handful of traditional crews at a reduced cost? Well, humor me. I'm a bit slow. You'll need to show me how that's possible.

Why does Spike need to show us his work before you'll back up your claims? He's not the one saying the sky is lime green and then insulting everyone who disagrees. It is you who claim traditional crews are a relic, not us.

So how about it you two? Are we agreed? Would this settle it?[/QUOTE]Dear NIB
If you want to see a piece that a VJ did that a conventional crew could not, go to my web site and take a look at Rwanda. this was shot, edited and produced by a VJ from Norwich, one of the smallest BBC local news stations. She was assigned to do a story on the 'immigrant community'. You know what that normally delivers - local family, family album. In this case, the VJ went with a mother and son refugee family from Rwanda, back to Rwanda for a week visit to the survivors of a massacre. Powerful stuff.

Could a crew have accompanied them for a week? Sure. Would a small local news station have sent a crew or paid for one? No way.

Now, as for Spike. He is supposed to be in the news business. He is very very quick to condemn other's work. As he is in our business, I don't think it unreasonable to ask to see what HE is capable of doing. In my experience, the greater the volume of protest, the bigger the incompetence of the complainer.

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 06:53 PM

You ask for a local news story, and he gives you a story about a trip to Africa. Typical.

The Fedora

Feb 5th 2007, 06:59 PM

Mike,

Maybe Spike doesn't want you to know his name so it doesn't get tossed around various message boards in an attempt to shut him up... hmmm, sound familiar? does to me.

Just because you make money shilling your idea does not mean it's a good one. There are rare opportunities, and people, who make the One Man Band system work well. It can not be an overhaul of the current system.

Spike is someone you would love to have as a convert, you're gonna have to trust me on this one, because a whole lot of people would listen to him in real life. But ya done an' pissed him off.

You know who I am Mike, blast me publicly if you wish but it's not gonna change the minds of anyone here.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 06:59 PM

this happens to be a local news story, about a local person who was also an immigrant.

now, let's see some of your stellar work.

Roy Hobbs

Feb 5th 2007, 07:16 PM

STELLA!!!!!

http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/MMPH/170351~Marlon-Brando-Kim-Hunter-Posters.jpg

Oh....sorry.

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 07:29 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Would a small local news station have sent a crew or paid for one? No way.Actually, one of the stations I worked for DID, in fact, send a photog to Africa for a week, with a full sized camera AND a reporter. They turned ten feature stories, which aired in two of the afternoon shows for a week during ratings. This was actually the last place station in a 60s level market.

So what was your point?

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 07:40 PM

still waiting to see your work. when are you gonna show it to us? Please also post a link to those pieces from Africa. Probably crap work by the conventional cameraman. Like to see it. And yours. Let's see some examples please.

[ February 05, 2007, 08:43 PM: Message edited by: Rosenblum ]

Spike

Feb 5th 2007, 07:46 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Probably crap work by the conventional cameraman. By "crap," you really mean "ahead of its time," right?

cameragod

Feb 5th 2007, 07:52 PM

Seen it last year or was it the year before…nothing good since then?

Why lobotomize the whole news room so you can afford to get one soft out of town story? How often have they sent VJ’s out of town? I bet that was the only one that year. So wreak the whole stations output forever for an occasional light feature story hmmm… not smart I would think.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 08:07 PM

Originally posted by cameragod:
Seen it last year or was it the year before…nothing good since then?

Why lobotomize the whole news room so you can afford to get one soft out of town story? How often have they sent VJ’s out of town? I bet that was the only one that year. So wreak the whole stations output forever for an occasional light feature story hmmm… not smart I would think.you ask for an example. I offer you one. you don't like it. too bad.

As for Spike, I could care less. Believe me.

cameragod

Feb 5th 2007, 08:38 PM

Michael I understand you are proud of Rwanda. No matter how many years old it is it’s not too badly shot. The top light is a bit possum in the headlights, some suspect framing, a few sound and auto iris/focus issues but the VJ has pushed the little camera near its limits and the edit is dull but competent.
But it’s not typical of a VJ news room. We only have to log on to any of the other VJ websites to see amateur hour video and suspect journalism.
Look I just jumped to WKRN and what the first VJ story I see?
http://www.wkrn.com/nashville/news/bellevue-church-names-new-pastor/75797.htm

Not that impressive is it? Not a brave new chapter in the future of News.

Rosenblum

Feb 5th 2007, 08:55 PM

In my experience it does not take too much work to find mediocre pieces in any newsroom in the world, VJ or otherwise. This is a far sadder commentary on our entire business. They air every day.

cameragod

Feb 5th 2007, 09:28 PM

Well I bet WKRN will feel better having spent all that cash on you to know that crap is all around.

News Is Broken

Feb 6th 2007, 08:18 AM

OK, Michael. I issued the challenge and you took it, just as I knew you would. ;)

First you said:
Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Dear NIB
If you want to see a piece that a VJ did that a conventional crew could not, go to my web site and take a look at Rwanda.And then you said:

Originally posted by Rosenblum:

Could a crew have accompanied them for a week? Sure. Would a small local news station have sent a crew or paid for one? No way.This was your ace. Your trump card meant to silence Spike and myself. But, I'm quite sorry to say, you allowed yourself to be played, Michael.

After reading this thread and analyzing your response above, I finally understand how you can equate VJ with "better news". With you it's simple:

Cheaper = Better.

This is evidenced best by your example. It's no wonder now how you get meetings and convince the suits that your way is the best way. You speak a language they understand: Money.

But we newsies know better Michael. We know that money saved is not the same as (and certainly not better than) quality storytelling. That is why Michael Rosenblums VJ Idea has failed everywhere it's been attempted. And will continue to fail.

So why do you persist? Are you unaware of these simple, logical facts?

No.

It's improbable that a man of your considerable education can be so blissfully unaware of this. It's far more likely that you know exactly what you are doing. It's also 100% certain that you could care less - if the suits want to kill news you'll gladly sell them the handgun. Isn't that right?

You don't have to answer that. We already know.

Thank you for your candor Michael. It's been fun pooning you (and far easier than I imagined, too). I'll now sit back and enjoy the rest of this thread.

McCovey Cove Returns

Feb 6th 2007, 08:27 AM

I believe the kids call this "pwned" or is it "pooned" as NIB calls it? Ugh, who cares.. a hell of an argument.

[ February 06, 2007, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: News Vampire ]

Spike

Feb 6th 2007, 10:17 AM

I have a question about the Rwanda story. Is that the only story the VJ turned, or did other stories air as well? And by other stories, I mean different stories, not different versions of the same story.

Rosenblum

Feb 6th 2007, 04:59 PM

Boys,
this is getting pretty boring and repetitive, but here is the bottom line. Cheaper is not a crime. Trust me. If your stations had limitless budgets (as one of my former employers once had) then all this would mean nothing. But they don't. You live in the real world, even if you don't want to. So have your fun here. I will have my fun elsewhere.
best

Spike

Feb 6th 2007, 05:17 PM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
Trust me. Ever notice how the people who use this line are usually the people who are least likely to be trustworthy?

Chicago Dog

Feb 10th 2007, 07:56 AM

Originally posted by Rosenblum:
In my experience it does not take too much work to find mediocre pieces in any newsroom in the world, VJ or otherwise. This is a far sadder commentary on our entire business. They air every day.Mike, why do you keep saying "our business?" The last time you were actually, truly involved in local news was 1979.

You're out. You've been out for almost thirty years. To hear you say "our business" is hilarious.

[ February 10, 2007, 08:58 AM: Message edited by: Chicago Dog ]