What Would Your Shop Do?

[Clever Login Name]

FBI is asking Seattle-area residents for help in finding two men acting suspiciously on local ferries ... they've included a photo taken by a ferry employee. The Seattle P-I runs the story but not the picture, because they aren't suspects or been charged with a crime. Smart move or not? Area t-v stations ran it, of course. Was the P-I being overly-PC, rightfully cautious in its journalism or trying to avoid a potential lawsuit? Or all three?

http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
FBI seeks help identifying 2 men seen aboard ferries
'Unusual behavior' cited, but no hint of terrorism
By SCOTT GUTIERREZ
P-I REPORTER

The FBI is asking the public for help in identifying two men who were seen behaving unusually aboard several Washington state ferries.

About four weeks ago, the FBI fielded several reports from passengers and ferry workers about the men, who seemed "overly interested in the workings and layouts of the ferries," Special Agent Robbie Burroughs said Monday.

The FBI also publicized photos of the men, which were taken by a ferry employee, Burroughs said.

The Seattle P-I is not publishing the photos because neither man is considered a suspect nor has either been charged with a crime.

The FBI has no information suggesting that a terrorist attack on the ferry system is imminent, Burroughs said.

For weeks, the FBI has been trying to identify the men through "normal law enforcement channels," she said.

"We get tips periodically, but we don't get photos normally like these," Burroughs said. "We're hoping to use them to resolve this quickly."

Despite the photos, the FBI was unable Monday to provide the men's height, weight or estimated age.

Investigators also did not disclose which ferry runs they were spotted on.

Burroughs acknowledged that the FBI rarely publicizes information from an investigation, unless investigators are seeking a suspect wanted for a crime.

The decision was made "out of an abundance of caution" and "while keeping an open mind and realizing that what some people consider suspicious or unusual behavior actually might turn out to be something completely innocuous," she said.

Anyone with information is asked to call 206-622-0460.

P-I reporter Scott Gutierrez can be reached at 206-903-5396 or scottgutierrez@seattlepi.com.

[News Is Broken]

Originally posted by Clever Login Name:
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
I wonder if we'd even be having this conversation if these guys were not from somewhere in the Middle East.

As such, yes it's worth checking out and yes I'd have run the picture, too. Too bad if they get upset about it. This story might have prevented a terrorist attack, regardless of what these guys say.

[Brain Cramp]

No No No you don't run the photo ... for the reasons the P-I cited. Now, we're going to run photos of every person who looks suspicious? Oh, sorry ... I meant people who look suspicious who also look middle-eastern. Shame on the TV stations who planted big wet kisses on the FBI's butt.

Instead, you tell the FBI "Begone, you have no power here" and show them the door.

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/63/222518870_a8f9beaa78.jpg

[News Is Broken]

I disagree. I would have run the picture regardless of race because these guys are not just interested in ferries, they are INTERESTED BIG TIME in ferries. Harmless by itself, but your gut will tell you something doesn't add up. Look at the guy in the foreground again. Forget his nationality for the moment. Just look at his face.

Let me ask you :Does he look like he's all geeked out about ferries to you? Me neither.

He looks like he's thinking "sh#t, someone just took my picture..." that's what he looks like. Gives me a bad vibe. I'd run this and remind viewers that we ran it WHEN (not if, WHEN) they haul these guys into custody for suspected terrorism.

[newz2me]

My question is why would the FBI need our help in locating these guys? Are they no longer on the ferries? Why would the FBI want to make a public broadcast saying "hey we're looking for you!" But to answer the question, I would not show the picture unless a crime was committed or the belief that they are in the midst of committing a crime. If they know they have more than a passing interest in the ferries then it's their job to maintain surveillance on these guys to determine what they're up to.

[Another side]

No, wouldn't run it. They don't have any evidence of terrorism plans,let alone any evidence the unidentified men were involved with terrorism. They're not even "suspects."

The P-I did the right thing, in my view.

[Clever Login Name]

As a follow-up, the P-I is sponsoring a haiku contest (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/thebigblog/archives/120414.asp) about the whole thing.

Yes, I'm quite serious.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

I say run it. I'm italian-american, and in this terror-prone world we're in right now...if someone thinks I look suspicious, you know what? Call the FBI, have them question me, and since I'm innocent, they can buy me a coffee and I'll be on my way. There's little room for people to be less-than-cautious in today's world.
Two suspicious middle-eastern looking men + middle-eastern looking men wanting to blow everything up(every stinkin' day) = interview from authorities to make sure they are just two middle-eastern looking men riding a ferry. graemlins/cheers2.gif

[talkinghead03]

is it me or does the guy in the foreground look like someone drew his eyebrows on with a Sharpie?

[Another side]

Originally posted by ISTHISTHINGON?:
I say run it. I'm italian-american, and in this terror-prone world we're in right now...if someone thinks I look suspicious, you know what? Call the FBI, have them question me, and since I'm innocent, they can buy me a coffee and I'll be on my way. There's little room for people to be less-than-cautious in today's world.
Two suspicious middle-eastern looking men + middle-eastern looking men wanting to blow everything up(every stinkin' day) = interview from authorities to make sure they are just two middle-eastern looking men riding a ferry. graemlins/cheers2.gif Calling you and questioning you is a little different than plastering your picture in the newspaper -- under an "FBI Wants to Talk To" headline for your friends, neighbors and coworkers to see. I don't think you'd enjoy it all that much.

[ August 22, 2007, 03:57 AM: Message edited by: Another side ]

[The Mockingbird]

Originally posted by Another side:
No, wouldn't run it. They don't have any evidence of terrorism plans,let alone any evidence the unidentified men were involved with terrorism. They're not even "suspects."

The P-I did the right thing, in my view.No, they didn't. The story is that the FBI is looking for two people spotted on a ferry. If you don't think the picture is newsworthy, then you don't think the story is newsworthy. You can't have it both ways.

[Ms. Corningstone]

Many of these men were seen taking flying lessons. Would they have been offended if we had aired their photos?

http://boortz.com/images/911_hijackers.jpg

[Fargin Icehole]

Originally posted by Clever Login Name:
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
http://entimg.msn.com/i/150/Movies/Actors/Leguizamo_M88614746_150.jpg
Ferry accident like what was on "Gray's Anatomy"??
Funny....I thought John Leguizamo was on "E.R.".

Wrong medical show....my bad.

[Another side]

Originally posted by The Mockingbird:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Another side:
No, wouldn't run it. They don't have any evidence of terrorism plans,let alone any evidence the unidentified men were involved with terrorism. They're not even "suspects."

The P-I did the right thing, in my view.No, they didn't. The story is that the FBI is looking for two people spotted on a ferry. If you don't think the picture is newsworthy, then you don't think the story is newsworthy. You can't have it both ways.</font>[/QUOTE]I agree with you ... the P-I shouldn't have run the story, either. I was referring only to the pictures-part of the issue.

[News Is Broken]

Aww, they ended the Haiku contest! What a bunch of communists.

[formerphotog]

Originally posted by News Is Broken:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Clever Login Name:
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
I wonder if we'd even be having this conversation if these guys were not from somewhere in the Middle East.

As such, yes it's worth checking out and yes I'd have run the picture, too. Too bad if they get upset about it. This story might have prevented a terrorist attack, regardless of what these guys say.</font>[/QUOTE]You know...this might come as a surprise to many of you, but has anyone considered the possibility that some of us guys...and gals are interested in how things work? I'm such a geek when it comes to my tv habits...Mythbusters, Modern Marvels, Really Big Things, etc. Yes they appear to be from the Middle East...but you can't automatically assume that they're out to blow up the ferry...

Besides, wouldn't there be better targets out there?

[The Fedora]

That would be a pretty good target in the Sea-Tac area. A LOT of people use the ferry system.

[elvez]

The photos should have been run along side pix of the FBI agents looking for them, you know, to help out.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

Originally posted by Another side:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by ISTHISTHINGON?:
I say run it. I'm italian-american, and in this terror-prone world we're in right now...if someone thinks I look suspicious, you know what? Call the FBI, have them question me, and since I'm innocent, they can buy me a coffee and I'll be on my way. There's little room for people to be less-than-cautious in today's world.
Two suspicious middle-eastern looking men + middle-eastern looking men wanting to blow everything up(every stinkin' day) = interview from authorities to make sure they are just two middle-eastern looking men riding a ferry. graemlins/cheers2.gif Calling you and questioning you is a little different than plastering your picture in the newspaper -- under an "FBI Wants to Talk To" headline for your friends, neighbors and coworkers to see. I don't think you'd enjoy it all that much.</font>[/QUOTE]Actually, I'd find it a rather interesting story to tell my friends(assuming the FBI didn't put splinters up my fingers to talk). I think it's come to this level where everyone should realize something bad is going to happen again. That said, no one should be offended(white, black, red, etc)if there's a question or anything that looked odd. I don't think it's taking away my freedom, I think it's protecting it. This all said with the notion they just want to question me. Show my picture....I'll call and say "hey FBI guys, that's me, pick me up at 6!"
Then I have them drop me off in front of my friends cookout with lights flashing. Okay, maybe that's stretching it...and I understand both sides...but I lost a family member Sept. 11...and I don't want anyone to go through what I did/do.

[CKMD]

Run it.
We are part of the information dissemination service. People should be given information like this.
And definately run their pictures.
Hell...we run pictures of people that have just been arrested with charges pending!

[WalMartNation]

Originally posted by formerphotog:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by News Is Broken:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Clever Login Name:
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
I wonder if we'd even be having this conversation if these guys were not from somewhere in the Middle East.

As such, yes it's worth checking out and yes I'd have run the picture, too. Too bad if they get upset about it. This story might have prevented a terrorist attack, regardless of what these guys say.</font>[/QUOTE]You know...this might come as a surprise to many of you, but has anyone considered the possibility that some of us guys...and gals are interested in how things work? I'm such a geek when it comes to my tv habits...Mythbusters, Modern Marvels, Really Big Things, etc. Yes they appear to be from the Middle East...but you can't automatically assume that they're out to blow up the ferry...

Besides, wouldn't there be better targets out there?</font>[/QUOTE]after my station ran the pictures in the first few shows, we ended up not showing them in the morning and instead putting a website link to the FBI webpage for people to see the pic.
As far as a target, other than a plane, you can't pick a better target in the Seattle area than a ferry or a sports stadium. During rush hour some ferries have a few thousand people on them.
CKMD is right, we're in the information business. If these guys are pissed, let 'em complain, as long as a ferry doesn't blow up, I'm okay with it.

[Another side]

Whether a subject would be "pissed" if their picture ran with a news story should never be the question in deciding to run it. I would venture a guess that anyone would be "pissed" if their face appeared on TV or in the newspapers with a terrorism-related story.

In this case, there is no warrant, no charges, no accusations, nor any evidence that terrorism was planned.

We (the media) shouldn't allow ourselves to be manipulated by government to the extent that all it has to do is point to a picture (or release a "story")based on anonymous accusations of being "suspicious." It's irresponsible and unfair.

[NYC Street]

I'd disagree, Side-

We'd consider the circumstances and probably give the FBI the benefit of the doubt. If they're seeking to question or identify someone, there's usually a reason - one which they might not actually disclose to us.

But weighing the annoyance to the two individuals if they turn out to be innocent against the potential problems for many if they turn out not to be innocent? That's a reasonably easy call.

[CKMD]

Originally posted by Another side:
We (the media) shouldn't allow ourselves to be manipulated by government to the extent that all it has to do is point to a picture (or release a "story")based on anonymous accusations of being "suspicious." It's irresponsible and unfair.You are correct...but, there are times, and most times, that the law enforcement arm of the government is actually trying to protect citizens.
It's not our job to decide that...we leave that to the people to decide.
I never feel like I am being manipulated when we're asked to run something. But it is healthy newsroom discussion to make these decisions on a per case basis...not in set "policy".

[Brain Cramp]

What if the two guys had red hair and freckles. Would you run the picture then? No, probably not since the FBI wouldn't think that two non-middle eastern looking men would be suspicious no matter how curious they were about the workings of a ferry. I stand by what I said earlier on this thread and believe that those of you who would run the photo have drank way too much of the Administration's fear-inducing Kool-Aid.

[Another side]

Originally posted by NYC Street:
I'd disagree, Side-

We'd consider the circumstances and probably give the FBI the benefit of the doubt. If they're seeking to question or identify someone, there's usually a reason - one which they might not actually disclose to us.

But weighing the annoyance to the two individuals if they turn out to be innocent against the potential problems for many if they turn out not to be innocent? That's a reasonably easy call.It wasn't easy for the P.I. -- at least not as far as the pictures were concerned. And again, the "annoyance" to the two men is not the issue (though a media lawyer might advise any paper considering using names and/or pictures in a terrorist story is just asking for litigation).

And the media did exactly what you suggested with the government and Iraq -- gave it the benefit of the doubt. How's that worked out?

I'd agree, actually, that there are times you extend the government the courtesy of "benefit of the doubt" -- I just don't think you do it with two men of middle-eastern descent in a terrorism-related story with no charges, no warrants, no evidence of terrorism or even facts to relate terrorism plans were being formed.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

Originally posted by Brain Cramp:
What if the two guys had red hair and freckles. Would you run the picture then? No, probably not since the FBI wouldn't think that two non-middle eastern looking men would be suspicious no matter how curious they were about the workings of a ferry. I stand by what I said earlier on this thread and believe that those of you who would run the photo have drank way too much of the Administration's fear-inducing Kool-Aid.If the FBI had serious concerns over two red headed guys with freckles....(at least in my opinion), it'd be the exact same. I'd run it because the FBI wants to talk to them....and for them to want Freckles scares me even worse. HOWEVER, you can't deny that there is something ALWAYS in the works to kill Americans now-a-days...and it just doesn't feel like I drank "fear-inducing" Kool-Aid if there's a chance we save three thousand people.

[newz2me]

Wanted for questioning
http://www.librarising.com/astrology/sunsigns/Simages/QR/ronhoward.jpg http://img.verycd.com/posts/0705/post-321419-1178201644.jpg

[ September 04, 2007, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: newz2me ]

[CKMD]

AS abd Brain Camp do bring up good and valid points. And, they are coming from a "skeptical" view of the government...which we should all have.

We certainly shouldn't dismiss the feds when they ask for our help, but we should also discuss these things within the newsroom.

What's the harm running the pic?

That's the most important question. In this case, there is none. In most cases, there is none.

While many old school journalists would say no way, there's no need to "help" the feds, I think that there should be dialogue about why or why not we shouldn't.

[Picture This ...]

http://www.geocities.com/california_state_unfair2002/ferry_men.jpg

[Lazlo Toth]

http://hacks.mit.edu/Hacks/by_year/1996/unabomber/unabomber-fbi.gif
The FBI didn't have much luck with this image. If the guy's brother hadn't turned him in for reasons other than the picture, he'd probably still be living in that cabin.

[Another side]

Originally posted by CKMD:
AS abd Brain Camp do bring up good and valid points. And, they are coming from a "skeptical" view of the government...which we should all have.

We certainly shouldn't dismiss the feds when they ask for our help, but we should also discuss these things within the newsroom.

What's the harm running the pic?

That's the most important question. In this case, there is none. In most cases, there is none.

While many old school journalists would say no way, there's no need to "help" the feds, I think that there should be dialogue about why or why not we shouldn't.I agree with the "there should be dialogue" and a previous poster's position admonishing against a set poicy in such scenarios. Discussion is always good.

I don't think it's an "old school" vs."new school" thing. I've met many young journalists who believe in the media's "government watchdog" role and who believe the media functions best (and most responsibly) when at arm's length with government.

But that's not my chief concern in this case. My chief concern is that, for all we know, the two men (part of the viewership/readership to whom we're responsible) have done nothing wrong ... and no one in "authority" is saying they have. They want us to say it for them.

And they know if we run stills of two middle-eastern looking men and talk about "suspicious" and "docks" and "ferries" -- and a disclaimer using the word "terrorism" (i.e., "No hint of terrorism") then the connection has been made: "Hey, Martha, did you see the pictures of the two Iraqis in the news? I'll bet they're planning to blow up the ferry, probably this Saturday afternoon. Damn Muslims ... I hope they find them."

And the government has said NONE of that ... but we've, however unintentionally, however accidentally, made the connection for them.

And from a reporting standpoint, it's irresponible, recreational journalism. If the government comes to your newsroom with pictures of two men and says, "We need help finding these guys. We have reason to believe they're involved in planning an act of terrorism or have connections with a local group that is, and we need to talk with them," then, yes, give the government the benefit of the doubt.

But when the FBI strolls in and says "Callers said they were acting suspicously ...but no, there's no charges ... no warrants ... no evidence they did anything wrong ...no evidence anything was done wrong around the area they were seen, no evidence anyone was planning sommething illegal in that area ... and sorry, no, none of the several callers could give us height and weight estimates or clothing descriptions ... and no, we can't tell you which ferry they were seen acting suspiciously around ... and, hey, if you want to use the word `terrorism' in your story, just remember, you brought it up -- it's your word, not ours -- not us" then you are being asked to ignore the basic tenets of fair and ethical journalism and your viewers and readers are well entitled to respond, "Look what they did to these two men ... will they do it to me next?"

But most won't, of course, because the two men have the same skin tone as those who attacked us on 9/11. Coulter would be proud.

[CKMD]

Originally posted by Another side:
[QUOTE]
I don't think it's an "old school" vs."new school" thing. I've met many young journalists who believe in the media's "government watchdog" role and who believe the media functions best (and most responsibly) when at arm's length with government.
I think most young journalist's these days beleive the watchdog role because their older managers, like myself and my ND, force it down their throats. Most of the kids in newsrooms these days want easy news release stories, 9 to 5 jobs and the ability to drink and party whenever they want.
Not all, but most.
But, I digress.

I think we are agreeing up to a certain point on the issue.

I'm not too concerned with discriminating against middle eastern looking people. I'm hispanic and get looked at with suspicion still...as, I'm sure, some black people in the town I live in...but that's a different thread.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

Not to change the subject....but what's your take on the South Carolina situation. Two Egyptian students busted with pipe bombs, near military brig where suspected Terrorist are held, Mom says "no way" as do the suspects who claim the material in question is homemade "fireworks".
I guess my point is that it's going to happen. These guys(the SC storyline) are yes, innocent until proven guilty...but come on...that's one hell of a coincidence. Sure, many hate Watchdog approach...but in today's world, you can either take the Watchdog approach(and maybe save lives and/or maybe cause headache for some innocent people)or not, and risk next years headline of "Ferry Boat explosion kills hundreds". The people on the streets can be the best "watchdogs", and then some can't. At this day and age, I want to err on the side of caution.

[Another side]

Those are two radically different scenarios ... and maybe I misunderstand your post,but for the record, by "Watchdog," I'm referring to the media watching government work ... not helping government watch others.

[ISTHISTHINGON?]

10-4 A.S. I actually think I misunderstood you. I think we all can agree that dialogue and discussion is good for this industry.

[WalMartNation]

Originally posted by Another side:
In this case, there is no warrant, no charges, no accusations, nor any evidence that terrorism was planned.
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
These guys look innocent to you? Okay, they very well could be. In that case, they have nothing to worry about, link pics and show them everywhere. If the pic were of me, I'd be in a Fed building proclaiming my innocence.

To share a line from Strange Brew; Doug MacKenzie says "We's innocent eh." Lawyer says; "well, if you're innocent, then you have nothing to worry about!" (followed by a sadistic laugh)

I have nothing more to add to this thread other than... if it means a ferry doesn't blow up in my city, it's worth running the picture.

[McCovey Cove Returns]

If the FBI comes to us with a picture, there's usually a reason. It's kind of like what the police do when some one is a "person of interest" in a case. Anytime law enforcement wants to get a photo out in the public realm, there's some sort of motive behind it. They don't release that sort of stuff for ****s and giggles. I say run the darn thing and make sure you source it to the FBI! Attribute. Attribute . Attribute.

[Signature on File]

Reminds me of the ferry scene in New Orleans in the movie "Dejavu".

[Picture This ...]

What no one seems to mention?
http://varifrank.com/images/Ferry_Men.jpg
... the facial expression of distrust
on these men's faces is something that
is a quite normal response when a stranger
points a camera at someone.

If the same camera was pointed your way?
I imagine your first response would be,
WTF? is this all about?

[Bureau Chief]

So has there been any follow up to this story? They find em and torture them or what? If MY picture was on every tv in the country and I was innocent, I would come forward to get it settled...but then thats just me.