Advice for Journ Students--Breathe News?

[overthehill]

So, in case you guys/gals, haven't guessed by now, I teach journalism at the collegiate level.

Anyway, I was told this week, by some respected folks associated with NBC News, that I should tell my students--who wanna be on-air--their success/career depends on their "commitment" to the news business, their true passion to live and die, breathe NEWS. That if they got into TV news because they wanna be "on air," because of celebrity-like status or ego, they should change careers.

The NBC News folks told me: If you want to rise to network level talent, be ready for long hours, holidays, weekends, on call, pagers, life that you can't really call your own. If you want an eight hour a day job, look elsewhere.

Agree?

[ July 22, 2005, 09:37 PM: Message edited by: overthehill ]

[adam & doctor drew]

that's great advice.

[Lazlo Toth]

If you're not willing to do that, someone else is. And they will likely move past you.

But they should also be told life is rull of trade offs. That kinds of success comes at a price.

You might have great professional success at the expense of your home life. Many network correspondents I knew along the way ended up divorced.

On the other hand, if you make a success of your home life, it may be at the expense of your career.

It's not axiomatic but I would say it's an odds on bet that you'll choose which price to pay.

[ July 22, 2005, 10:21 PM: Message edited by: Lazlo Toth ]

[Sultanosurf]

Well, that 'Breathe news' line sounds great, but there are just so many other factors in play these days.

Even if you make the commitment to your job, many employers don't. How many people will start and finish their career with NBC or any one organization these days?

Rejection is part of the process. And sources to create great stories will no longer be accorded the same protection we used to provide.

Yeah, having a passion for the job is important, but hopefully teaching or mentoring includes doses of reality.

[Fake Post]

I heard that same stuff more than twenty years ago. That's the problem with an academic setting. They pretty much teach "journalism in a perfect world."

Here's reality....

Getting a first on-air job is tough. Sometimes very tough.

Male and female model types who can halfway read off a prompter will almost always get ahead as anchors. Try explaining your "Q" rating to someone outside the business. They'll look at you like some sort of self absorbed nut. Talent agents will rarely handle a "solid" reporter unless they see anchor or network correspondent potential. Not enough financial incentive for agents to do it.

Minorities will rocket up the news ladder three times faster than whites if they fill the right "niche." That's great for minorities but really grates on the rest of us white folk who work just as hard.

Winning awards and being a solid reporter does not mean anything, except to those management types who appreciate good news. Mr. or Mrs. average viewer cares more about the dress or tie that you wore on the nightly newscast.

People will almost always get ahead (at least at their station) by brownnosing or sleeping with management.

Small market reporting is hell when you one-man-band. Now that practice is creeping up to the major markets.

Never let your students forget that they can rocket to the network in a few years, and then flame out never to be heard from again. Katie Courics are very rare in this biz.

That's reality. graemlins/icon_kidra.gif

[Ferrycrossthemersey]

You posted:
"The NBC News folks told me: If you want to rise to network level talent, be ready for long hours, holidays, weekends, on call, pagers, life that you can't really call your own. If you want an eight hour a day job, look elsewhere."

The only possible response one can make of this, is the classic...DUH! I mean, THIS IS THE LIFE. I can't believe you don't get that, professor...or were you never in news????

[Nigel Wick]

All true-- but rememeber that everything has its limits. Family is important, too...and so is your sanity. I've seen too many people make too many sacrifices, myself included, and they wind up pathetic, lonely, and old.

[Michigan J. Frog]

If you love news, you'll do this without being asked or told.

If you do news for the paycheck, you won't.

[TVMattNYC]

Originally posted by overthehill:
So, in case you guys/gals, haven't guessed by now, I teach journalism at the collegiate level.

Anyway, I was told this week, by some respected folks associated with NBC News, that I should tell my students--who wanna be on-air--their success/career depends on their "commitment" to the news business, their true passion to live and die, breathe NEWS. That if they got into TV news because they wanna be "on air," because of celebrity-like status or ego, they should change careers.

The NBC News folks told me: If you want to rise to network level talent, be ready for long hours, holidays, weekends, on call, pagers, life that you can't really call your own. If you want an eight hour a day job, look elsewhere.

Agree?It's the God's Honest Truth.

And professor ... please give your students an additional piece of advice:

If you're interested in news, WORK in news WHILE you're in college getting a degree in something BESIDES "communications" or "broadcast journalism". Work at your college radio or TV station ... or better yet, a local radio or TV station (the smaller the better for the most broad-based experience).

As someone pointed out earlier, this industry has changed quite a bit over the years, with hot young talent being able to "rocket" to the networks within five years of graduating from college. But on the flip side, there's nowhere NEAR the "staying rate" that this industry once held for talent. There's a much faster FLAME OUT rate for these hot youngsters who ROCKET to the top.

The sad truth today is that while you might be the hottest young thing in news today ... you, like everyone else, will get OLD. Unfortunately, "old" isn't 60-something anymore, or 50-something, or even 40-something ... it's now 30-something. Broadcast news is now a good "first career". Always be prepared for your SECOND career, because you'll be shown the door (or burn out) sooner than you think ... and you'll need that degree in SOMETHING ELSE to fall back on.

Trust me on this. I was told early on in my career by a 36-year-old reporter that "this business is for kids", and "16 years is quite long enough". I didn't believe her at the time (being a fresh-faced, wide-eyed 22-year-old), but now, as I enter MY 18th year, I see what she meant.

It starts hitting you when you turn 30 ... the inability to continue abusing your body and depriving it of sleep while you work these crazy shifts. But then it REALLY starts BITING when you hit your mid-30s, and all your friends, with 15+ years in THEIR careers, start reaping the rewards of THIER hard work: promotions to Vice President (or even President) ... 6 or even 8 week vacation packages ... generous stock packages ... corner offices ... autonomy in their jobs. All the result of their persistence and hard work ... not how they "look" or "sound".

It's also becoming painfully apparent that while you're working working working these crazy shifts, a decade (or two) has slipped by, as you've traded in LIFE for "LIVE". All those missed holidays ... family gatherings ... long weekends ... dinners with friends ... DATES ... start to mean a lot more to you. You wake up one day and realize that all your friends have pretty much *forgotten* about you, and while you were out chasing your television dreams, they've moved on -- buying homes, getting married, having kids, taking vacations, and ENJOYING LIFE. The LIFE that you only know through the STORIES you cover and write. You *cover* life, while everyone else LIVES it.

By the way ... my then-36-year-old reporter friend today is now a successful attorney who no longer works overnights, weekends, or holidays.

[ July 26, 2005, 01:17 PM: Message edited by: TVMattNYC ]

[Tripe Face]

That advice can apply to almost ANYONE trying to get a job in a real profession. Do you think we work harder/longer hours than say--Lawyers, Doctors, Computer programmers, small business owners, accountants? (ok I'll grant you we work more holidays than most)

Check out the highway at 5am, it's full of people going to work and most of them are NOT tv people... many of them put in 12 hour days doing jobs most of us would find mind-numbingly boring. They don't get to meet movie stars, athletes, politicians... they don't see history as it's happening... they don't get the immediate satisfaction of seeing the results of a good days work play out on the air for all the world. And unless you are a photographer, there's no real back breaking labor involved, it's mostly talking and typing.

As far as the "Breathing News" part... it sure makes the job easier if you know what's going on in the world.

[ July 23, 2005, 05:03 AM: Message edited by: Tripe Pits ]

[overthehill]

Thanks for all the great replies.

And yes, Ferry...I spent only about 30 years in local TV news. Not a day at the network level. THAT's what I'm asking about...the quest to get to the network. Spout your fury at some else!

Let me expand the discussion.

Another high ranking NBC (off air) person tells me, you can become a successful broadcast journalist WITHOUT a journalism degree. He says--"Bring me a well rounded person, with life experience, with a sense of history, who understands the world, the nation...I can teach them the TV part of it."

Yes we all know people who have succeeded without J-degrees. But do you think those with J-degrees get farther, faster?

[ July 23, 2005, 06:12 AM: Message edited by: overthehill ]

[2:30]

What Matt said.

[Fake Post]

Originally posted by overthehill:
Thanks for all the great replies.

And yes, Ferry...I spent only about 30 years in local TV news. Not a day at the network level. THAT's what I'm asking about...the quest to get to the network. Spout your fury at some else!

Let me expand the discussion.

Another high ranking NBC (off air) person tells me, you can become a successful broadcast journalist WITHOUT a journalism degree. He says--"Bring me a well rounded person, with life experience, with a sense of history, who understands the world, the nation...I can teach them the TV part of it."

Yes we all know people who have succeeded without J-degrees. But do you think those with J-degrees get farther, faster?BTW

Next time you rub shoulders with the network types, be sure and ask THEM what their path to the top was.

Next time I hear of a person going to work for the Today Show or some other network show out of college, I want to throw a brick through the tv.

[kim jung il]

If You Breathe News? ...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/korea/story/leader/kim.dae.jung/link.kim.jong.il.jpg
...it will kill you ...eventually.

---------------------------
Maybe? ...Make "Secondhand News" Warning Labels for News Watcher.

[ July 23, 2005, 10:39 AM: Message edited by: kim jung il ]

[a shooter]

Originally posted by overthehill:


Yes we all know people who have succeeded without J-degrees. But do you think those with J-degrees get farther, faster?when asked, i advise potential broadcast journalists to get a General Studies degree - or a degree in history or political science. a journalism minor compliments that nicely.

journalists - both on- and off-air - get thrown into new and assorted situations and topics every day. its good to be an inch deep and a mile wide. know a little about a lot, and be a quick study.

[NYC Street]

One of the best shops I ever worked in had a firm, if unwritten, rule: never, ever hire anyone with an undergraduate degree in journalism.

Far better that the individual study something useful.

[The Fedora]

I know someone who is in this bsuiness only to get in with a particular sports team as a PR person.

That grates the hell outta me because I love this business, it's all I want to do.

[rootboyslim]

Here goes: there is a lot of truth to what everyone has said here. I think having a second degree certainly helps. I tried to counsel a friend's son who was hell bent on going to graduate school for journalism when he already has the same undergraduate degree. Personally, I think the college degree is overhyped, but then again, I am not hiring. The best experience is practical experience. Use college to elarn to speak correct English, know how local government works etc... The problem is, do all those hiring believe this? I doubt it.

Now to the real question at hand. I did leave the business full time after 16 years for corporate PR. I am still able to anchor a daily news show for our company as we have a nicer TV station than most of the stations in the town where I live. I still free lance on the side outside of work...for pretty good money too. Was I burned out? Only on the fact that I could not be a good dad, husband and friend while working in the TV business. Matt hit a bullseye. After 16 years it was my marriage and family or the TV industry full time. I actually consulted Bob Dotson---one of my personal TV heros and defintiely one of the good guys in the world today---and he told me this: you can get a job at the network (I had a potential agent trying to sell me on that) or I could watch my kids grow up. I chose the latter.

So overthehill---yes, you need to breathe to get it, in my opinion.

[Ferrycrossthemersey]

Didn't mean to spout off at ya...

I do have a journalism degree...and I don't think it helped or hurt. If I were in school today, though, I'd go for something like history or political science. It doesn't take much to learn how to communicate; it helps if you have something TO communicate.

And for what it's worth, I've been in network news 25-years, but started the same way everyone else does: a few years of tiny markets in godforsaken places that are actually fun because you're all young and poor together.

But it didn't matter whether it was local or net, still worked my a@# off. I do have a great family life, but, you have to work at that, too: you have to MAKE time for it (plan vacations well in advance, even for things like taking the kids out trick-or-treating, birthdays, school plays, etc.). Not easy, but it all can be done.

[NoName]

Print this thread and give copies to your students.

[overthehill]

You Medialiners are wise folks. Thanks for the great opinions.

By the way, I have been checking with the network anchors/reporters on their path(s) to where they are. Interesting, cause one of the biggest names on NBC News dropped out of college. Most have climbed via the affiliate ladder--market to market, til they reach an O&O where they're finally picked for the so-called Big Leagues. Several were fired on their way to the network. One told me--you're not really a good at this business until you've been fired (contract not renewed) or sued.

A couple started in radio and were asked to cross over to TV. I'm yet to meet a network correspondent who was magically brought from college to the Net.

By the way, I often use our Medialine discussions to supplement my lectures. There's real life wisdom among us!!!

[Medicinematt]

So, you guys say its best to major in something else then journalism and actually work in news while doing it? I'm doing that now (not by choice) and I tend to agree. Rather then be told to "do this and this" I can shadow local reporters and learn from them on the job, write for the campus paper (and local small weekly) and volunteer at the local cable station reporting for their news program. It seems to be working out nicely. However, you have to set this stuff up yourself, it's not for people who have to be told what to do or have someone [a professor] hold their hand.

[ July 23, 2005, 07:19 PM: Message edited by: newsweather ]

[Fake Post]

Originally posted by kim jung il:
If You Breathe News? ...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/korea/story/leader/kim.dae.jung/link.kim.jong.il.jpg
...it will kill you ...eventually.

---------------------------
Maybe? ...Make "Secondhand News" Warning Labels for News Watcher.Would "breathing news" make Kim Jong ill?
graemlins/eusa_doh.gif graemlins/icon_pray.gif graemlins/cheers2.gif graemlins/iamwithstupid.gif

[Desert Rat]

I can't think of how many times I've said this on this board.

It's just a job, no more, no less.

[zeppelin42]

That advice works for me. But let's face it. Many of the people in this business don't want to make it to the top unless it means celebrity. They just want to be a face on the national screen. Still others don't see it as anything to hope for, and say they're just "doing their part". They couldn't care less about working longer hours to get a story right. And managing editors/LPs don't want to get the tough story. They just want to make the ratings so they can keep their jobs.
-z

[Fake Post]

Originally posted by overthehill:
You Medialiners are wise folks. Thanks for the great opinions.

By the way, I have been checking with the network anchors/reporters on their path(s) to where they are. Interesting, cause one of the biggest names on NBC News dropped out of college. Most have climbed via the affiliate ladder--market to market, til they reach an O&O where they're finally picked for the so-called Big Leagues. Several were fired on their way to the network. One told me--you're not really a good at this business until you've been fired (contract not renewed) or sued.

A couple started in radio and were asked to cross over to TV. I'm yet to meet a network correspondent who was magically brought from college to the Net.

By the way, I often use our Medialine discussions to supplement my lectures. There's real life wisdom among us!!!Sorry about not being more specific.

I meant management types like Jeff Zucker, president of NBC Entertainment, who went from Harvard student to network job at NBC and then Exec. Producer for the Today Show.

I'd like to know how many management types were ecstatic to learn that they were being passed over for a promotion only to allow some smarta$$ed Harvard kid show them how TV News is done.

[ July 24, 2005, 02:45 PM: Message edited by: Fake Post ]

[my moniker]

Overthehill understands this business. He understands it well from first hand experience. He's a damn fine story-teller and a damn fine journalist.

It sounds to me that the network level advice is meant to pound out real journalists. No one should desire to be at the network level unless they are committed to news, facts, and history in the making.
Too many think that network level means celebrity. But when you look at those at that level who do it well, you're not looking at celebrities. We're not talking about Katie and Matt. We're talking about Robert Krulwich (spelling?) John Hockenberry, Bob Schieffer etc. Names that the kids in Overthehill's classes, certainly don't hold on the tips of their tongues.

But even that great advice doesn't take into account that the biz doesn't really work that way any more. Fresh, cheap faces are the easy get these days.

But even a love for news... the ability to eat sleep and breathe news isn't enough to get someone to the network level. These days it requires a degree of insanity, because the sane among us tend to opt out for love of family. As NYCMatt noted, we desire to live life instead of report it.

I'd venture a guess, that's why Overthehill is where he is and not at network... that incredible family of his.

One told me--you're not really a good at this business until you've been fired (contract not renewed) or sued. Overthehill, you told me that very same thing - face to face a few years ago. Your version went something like this... "Everyone I know who has ever been fired in this business has gone on to something much better, and they're much happier" (I'm paraphrasing)
Let me just say, you were right.

Thanks man. It was an honor to have worked by your side!

[s'news]

Originally posted by Frogman:
If you love news, you'll do this without being asked or told.
Ditto this. You either have the news bug or you don't.

I have a J-school degree, by the way. It's helped me. But plenty of other folks don't, and that's also okay.

[LMS]

The advice overthehill got is valuable not because it is good or bad, but rather because it is true.

For whatever reason - greed on managment's part or dedication on the journalist's part, the unpredictable nature of the industry dictates that we keep doctor's hours, not bankers hours. We can judge for outselves which of those careers we are closer to, but there is no changing the fact that if you're gonna progress, the sacrifice you will make is that you will not have as full of a personal life as people in other industies.

So the question is really this: "Given that you are choosing to choose work over a personal life, can you live with that decision. Many can't, won't and shouldn't. Others say it is worth it.

Here are the reasons you should not choose that life:

- Money
- Advancement
- Recognition

Here is the reason you should choose it

- You believe in the nobility of telling good stories

That's it. Nothing else even comes close. I'm gonna get on the soapbox for a sec and say that there is a nobility in what we do when done correctly. There is a valued place, and there should be, for the man or woman who can answer the question "what happened?" and can provide a result for the person who says "tell me a story." It's not brain surgery, it's not rocket sience, it's just storytelling, but it has value, and if you believe in it, it can be worth the sacrifice. Just be aware of overthehill's excellent advice at the beginning, not at the middle or end of your career.

[Nigel Wick]

Please remember to keep a balance. The news biz can be a lot of fun, but you need some "me" time and some "family" time.

[Steve Scott]

Great thread, OTH! smile.gif

[upandown]

It's real simple to me.

If, by the time they get to J-school or an internship, they haven't already been writing for many years, then I question their suitability or commitment to this business.

Seriously. Write early, write often.

Last, week, a 14 year-old mailed me, asking how and where he might get published, now. It was a perfect note...clear, concise, no grammatical errors.

That's the kind of kid who does well.

[ July 26, 2005, 10:31 AM: Message edited by: upandown ]

[zeppelin42]

Originally posted by upandown:
It's real simple to me.

If, by the time they get to J-school or an internship, they haven't already been writing for many years, then I question their suitability or commitment to this business.

Seriously. Write early, write often.

Last, week, a 14 year-old mailed me, asking how and where he might get published, now. It was a perfect note...clear, concise, no grammatical errors.

That's the kind of kid who does well.Way back when, my sister and mother were discussing my sister's collegiate options. My sister said she wanted to go into journalism. My mother said, "I don't think that would be appropriate." My sister responded (seriously), "What's 'appropriate' mean?" That actually happened. Anyways, she became a psychologist. True story. Your story reminded me of it.
-z

[ksvisucks]

Do you think we work harder/longer hours than say--Lawyers, Doctors, Computer programmers, small business owners, accountants?
No, but the probably make more $$$ than us TV folk. Also, interesting to hear about the NBC guy straight out of Harvard. One of my previous shops (small market) hired a reporter straight out of Harvard. Without question, the dumbest f'n reporter I've ever seen in 12 years of TV. He didn't make his 3 month probation period, they fired him... and in this case, being fired wasn't a good thing. He's not in TV anymore thank God.

[Another side]

Originally posted by overthehill:
So, in case you guys/gals, haven't guessed by now, I teach journalism at the collegiate level.

Anyway, I was told this week, by some respected folks associated with NBC News, that I should tell my students--who wanna be on-air--their success/career depends on their "commitment" to the news business, their true passion to live and die, breathe NEWS. That if they got into TV news because they wanna be "on air," because of celebrity-like status or ego, they should change careers.

The NBC News folks told me: If you want to rise to network level talent, be ready for long hours, holidays, weekends, on call, pagers, life that you can't really call your own. If you want an eight hour a day job, look elsewhere.

Agree?Absolutely. I know nothing about the networks, never touched them nor chased them (I made the majority of my money in print.)

But I, too, believe a couple of things that have been said by others:

One, if you value the term "I'm off," you are going to be outworked and outhustled most of your career, and if you're seeking advancement, it will come slowly, if at all.

Despite the impressions one might get on these boards from time-to-time, I suspect many of the reporters and writers who frequent here pull out all stops in pursuit of their stories. Not in pursuit of the money, or the celebrity, or the network anchor chair, -- the story. The quality of their lives, the value of their supposed "free time," vacations, multiple family outings, are all secondary considerations. If you can't or won't hang, you don't have much of a chance.

Second, I'll add to Upanddown's point, which I consider the bottom line, whether print or broadcast: If you do not get up every single morning wanting to write, needing to write, willing to fight for, or at least justify, every word you gave to your producer or editor, you are either misguided or an out-and-out sham.

Either way, it will be disovered and sooner or later someone wise, with authority, will counsel you to consider another profession. It is counsel you should take.

[ July 28, 2005, 12:45 AM: Message edited by: Another side ]

[mothball]

Originally posted by kim jung il:
If You Breathe News? ...
http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2000/korea/story/leader/kim.dae.jung/link.kim.jong.il.jpg
...it will kill you ...eventually.

---------------------------
Maybe? ...Make "Secondhand News" Warning Labels for News Watcher.Same thing can be said for air. I mean, really -- ask anyone over 150. Can't find anyone over 150? They must have breathed the air.

Or drank water -- I hear it has a high mortality rate, too.