SOT to start a PKG?

[TJAB 23]

Some think I'm nuts, but that's another story...

I have always said, one should never start a story with a soundbite.

Beside being a completely lazy approach to writing, it's confusing to the audience when the anchor says, "Here's Bob Saccamanow with more..." and up pops some yahoo's soundbite...

It's okay to start with NAT Sound, but not a full-fledged soundbite...

Agree???

[Hurricane]

I agree 99% of the time, unless it's such an extreme sound bite that it makes sense. I know I did it at least once, but I can't remember what was said. Sorry.

[Fargin Icehole]

I can see it happening but ONLY if it is kept very short (maybe five seconds). It can set the tone of the package, You can get into the guts of the SOT later.

[ February 08, 2006, 08:55 AM: Message edited by: D ]

[TVNewsLady]

When I first started reporting, I thought I could humanize/personalize a story better by starting with an emotional or compelling soundbyte. I find now, several years later, that I do it less and less. I say only do it when the soundbyte is ripe with emotion, such as anger, surprise, something extreme.

[Judge]

I completely disagree.
Sometimes a person's words and observations are more powerful and telling than anything you can write off the top.

For example, at a house fire with elderly people asleep inside, I found a teenage neighbor who was all amped up:
"Flames are SHOOTING out the roof!! And I'm bangin' on the door, POUNDING, SCREAMING,
Mr. Anderson!!! Mr. Anderson!!!!
YOU GOTTA GET OUT!!!!!!!!!"

That sounded like a pretty solid, grabby start to me, (with video of the raging fire).
In fact, it would have probably been a pretty solid hot open for the newscast, had the producer wanted it.

But if you feel that's lazy, you could write something like, "Neighbors were terrified as they watched the fire engulf the house."
That's not lazy. It's also not necessary, not compelling, not to mention redundant.

Too many lazy reporters use too many of their words these days.
A hard working reporter crafts his/her story in the field the the photographer, finding compelling soundbites and shots that will lessen the need for a lot of heavy track later.

And if you can't find a way to craft your lead into that opening soundbite, ("Bob Saccamonow found neighbors...etc")
then you're taking a very narrow (and some would argue lazy) approach to storytelling.

[AlterEgo]

If you have a really good soundbite to lead off, then it's okay. You should write your lead-in differently than the standard..soandso reporter has more...

[s'news]

Never use the word "never."

D'oh!

But avoiding a soundbite as the start of a package is a good rule of thumb. Another is avoiding a lede that starts with a question.

What comes to mind for me as sound that could start up a package — and it's the sort of thing I'd have to see and hear on a case-by-case basis — is not only extremely dramatic sound, but also a bite with a natural element to it. I'm thinking here of someone who is wearing a wireless and showing us something.

[Mr G]

the more emotional, the more compelling, the more grabbing the SOT is...the more you should NOT start your story with it. It gets lost off the top and the viewer doesn't know who's talking, and more importantly, why they should care about what they say.

don't be lazy. come up with a good opening. set the tone, the mood,and the pace with good writing. you were there(and have already heard all the SOTS) and know what's important, but the viewer is coming in cold.

starting with some good nat sound, or a NATSOT like s'news said, is a good way to bring people in.

[2:30]

That "good opening" could come from the anchor. "And our Joe Blow spoke to the victim, who told her remarkable story."

Victim: "I couldn't believe it."

Joe Blow: Mary Smith...talking about the meteor bearing the likeness of the Chimp that smashed through her roof...

Snews is exactly right....never say never.

If it works, use it.

[s'news]

In most cases, what you want to start with is interesting moving pictures that set the stage for the story. And you try to write to that video in an interesting way.

[Judge]

Originally posted by Mr G:
the more emotional, the more compelling, the more grabbing the SOT is...the more you should NOT start your story with it. It gets lost off the top and the viewer doesn't know who's talking, and more importantly, why they should care about what they say.

don't be lazy. come up with a good opening. set the tone, the mood,and the pace with good writing. you were there(and have already heard all the SOTS) and know what's important, but the viewer is coming in cold.

starting with some good nat sound, or a NATSOT like s'news said, is a good way to bring people in.Wow. I respectfully disagree 1000%.

To make a blanket argument that nat sounds or nat sots off the top are good choices, while soundbites are bad choices, well that's just plain narrow-minded, especially with no examples.

[ February 08, 2006, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: Judge ]

[buckpasser]

If you have a SOT that grabs, I see no reason why you couldn't use it.

With an appropriate lead-in, of course.

Sh*t...I think the CBS Sunday Morning Show takes a SOT off the top of EVERY package they run...

[Judge]

Originally posted by 2:30:
That "good opening" could come from the anchor. "And our Joe Blow spoke to the victim, who told her remarkable story."

Victim: "I couldn't believe it."

Joe Blow: Mary Smith...talking about the meteor bearing the likeness of the Chimp that smashed through her roof...

Snews is exactly right....never say never.

If it works, use it.THIS I agree with 1000%.

[Marty McFly]

First rule in TV: Know when to break the rest of the rules.

How can anyone say that a package should never start with a soundbite? Are you saying a package should NEVER start with compelling sound?

Ridiculous.

When it works, USE IT.
When it doesn't, DON'T.

[Stack It]

There's no rule on how a package should start. Good compelling sound is good sound, use it. Don't bury it in the package, grab the viewer right away. The key is in the lead to the package, everything has to flow together. I'd rather hear from a person I interviewed if they have something descriptive and colorful. People make stories. I know reporters who ALWAYS use Nat sound pops at the top of their package, no matter what. I disagree with that approach because you're forcing the story. It's all about getting good video and good SOTs, you have those elements and the writing is almost secondary.

[News Lady]

If I am fronting a story, I usually start with a bite. Why? because in addition to the anchor 10 to 15 sec lede, I gave a 10 to 15 sec set up and it's time to hear the story dammit. If you have good nats, I think it'sthe best way to start. Don't force it, some stories, the nats just aren't there. Some posts say the reporter should set the tone, if the bite does it for me, why not use it? I remember I did a pkg about a rash of burglaries in this one neighborhood, boring. One family had a little boy and they burglars took his finding nemo DVD. I started the pkg with the three year old saying ,"They took Nemo." He was so cute and really hurt about losing this dvd, it really pulled at the heartstrings. I thought it was a very effective away of bringing the viewers into what could have been a very lame story.

[Delicious Bass]

The opening bite had better be compelling and grab me. And it should be short, almost as an exclamation rather than a bite. Anything long and it starts to lose its effectiveness.

[amp]

The first 20 seconds of a package are the most important part of the package. If you hold your great soundbite until the end, but the viewer has already changed the channel or just stopped paying attention, you're screwed.

[Mr G]

Originally posted by News Lady:
If I am fronting a story, I usually start with a bite. Why? because in addition to the anchor 10 to 15 sec lede, I gave a 10 to 15 sec set up and it's time to hear the story dammit. If you have good nats, I think it'sthe best way to start. Don't force it, some stories, the nats just aren't there. Some posts say the reporter should set the tone, if the bite does it for me, why not use it? I remember I did a pkg about a rash of burglaries in this one neighborhood, boring. One family had a little boy and they burglars took his finding nemo DVD. I started the pkg with the three year old saying ,"They took Nemo." He was so cute and really hurt about losing this dvd, it really pulled at the heartstrings. I thought it was a very effective away of bringing the viewers into what could have been a very lame story.it may have pulled on your heartstrings, but the viewers didn't have time to care.

what about this?

((PKG))
((NATS from neighborhood w/ VO of street))
BURGLARS TOOK MORE THAN THE PEACE OF MIND FROM THIS QUIET NEIGHBORHOOD.
((SOT w/ boy))
"They took Nemo."
...THEY TOOK THE SMILE FROM A THREE YEAR OLD BOY.

[overthehill]

I'm not a big fan of leading or ending pkgs with SOTs. But it's permissible to lead a pkg with a SOT if:

1. the pkg is tossed to in a live shot, set up properly by the live reporter first

2. the anchor lead is written appropriately to soften the toss to SOT: "Reporter Joe Blow talked to victims at the scene"

3. the SOT is so overwhelmingly compelling that it is a grabber itself

Ending on a SOT is too abrupt and should ONLY be done when the finishing SOT is eloquent enough to capture the essence of the entire report. Far too many reporters end on SOTs simply because they're outa time. Whoops, better just slap on an outcue/signoff.

[Eyegetit]

I have always said, one should never start a story with a soundbite Not only do I disagree, I cannot believe anyone outside of a small market agrees with you.

Where do these alleged "rules" come from? Who in the world decided you "should never" start with a soundbite. There is nothing "lazy" about it. Whatever works for the package works!. If you have a compelling sound bite and it grabs off the top, use it! If it works better to start with a written line, do it! Sometimes raw emotion is the best entry to the story. Sometimes it is not. Sometimes a reporter is leading into their own package live. Sometimes the anchor is tossing. There are so many scenarios. It is insane to limit yourself, or your colleagues with these archaic ideas.

I mention small markets, not to insult, but because that is the only place I ever saw journalists and camerapeople trying to impose restrictions on creativity. I got the impression that they had all just gotten out of school and needed some rules to follow. I never agreed. It seemed silly and, once I moved on, I saw that most people had tossed these limitating ideas out the window.

[Eyegetit]

Yes, I meant "limiting."

[adam & doctor drew]

eyegetit is right.

rules are dumb.
and they encourage formula work.
why would you want to erect artificial barriers that might limit your creativity?

do what works best for that day's story.

[Obewon]

What the hell is wrong with you people?????

You're actually debating issues involving story construction and journalism!

Are you nuts??????

This forum is strictly reserved for bashing Bush!!!!

[sophie]

Originally posted by Mr G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by News Lady:
If I am fronting a story, I usually start with a bite. Why? because in addition to the anchor 10 to 15 sec lede, I gave a 10 to 15 sec set up and it's time to hear the story dammit. If you have good nats, I think it'sthe best way to start. Don't force it, some stories, the nats just aren't there. Some posts say the reporter should set the tone, if the bite does it for me, why not use it? I remember I did a pkg about a rash of burglaries in this one neighborhood, boring. One family had a little boy and they burglars took his finding nemo DVD. I started the pkg with the three year old saying ,"They took Nemo." He was so cute and really hurt about losing this dvd, it really pulled at the heartstrings. I thought it was a very effective away of bringing the viewers into what could have been a very lame story.it may have pulled on your heartstrings, but the viewers didn't have time to care.

what about this?

((PKG))
((NATS from neighborhood w/ VO of street))
BURGLARS TOOK MORE THAN THE PEACE OF MIND FROM THIS QUIET NEIGHBORHOOD.
((SOT w/ boy))
"They took Nemo."
...THEY TOOK THE SMILE FROM A THREE YEAR OLD BOY.</font>[/QUOTE]Nicely written, I love it. But I changed the channel at (NATS from neighborhood/ VO of street)...I didn't have time to care.

Just kidding with you.

I think opening with a SOT can be a great way to open a piece, and not lazy at all. Lazy is writing a lead into such a package with "here's Joe Schmo with more." Get creative with the intro, and it can be dynamite!

[Michigan J. Frog]

Start with a SOT if it makes the story stronger.

Don't if it doesn't.

End with one for the same reason.

[Kelvin Hemholtz]

My own rules for SOTS are the same as standups. If it MOVES the story along... do it. If it doesn't... cut it.

It doesn't matter to me where the SOT is, as long as it's moving me through the story. If I have to go back in the timeline or thought process to clarify something, I need a re-write.

[photogguy]

HOLY CRAP!

I didn't think I'd live long enough to see a discussion here about, of all things, something television news related, where someone was asking a question, got opinions, and all very professional!

Wow.

[ February 09, 2006, 12:49 AM: Message edited by: photogguy ]

[LMS]

Well, if you need a practical reason not to do it, it's just about the best way to get your resume tape thrown out of the ND's tape deck.

Let's be honest. Can some sots be powerful? Sure. It happens. Maybe one out of every hundred stories the sot is so good, so compelling that it should be the lead. But the other 99 times it's not.

But it's just bad storytelling. Look at it this way. Do you tell a hoke by starting with the punchline?

And a ND will assume you don't know how to tell a story.

[TJAB 23]

Originally posted by Judge:
I completely disagree.
Sometimes a person's words and observations are more powerful and telling than anything you can write off the top.

For example, at a house fire with elderly people asleep inside, I found a teenage neighbor who was all amped up:
"Flames are SHOOTING out the roof!! And I'm bangin' on the door, POUNDING, SCREAMING,
Mr. Anderson!!! Mr. Anderson!!!!
YOU GOTTA GET OUT!!!!!!!!!"

That sounded like a pretty solid, grabby start to me, (with video of the raging fire).
In fact, it would have probably been a pretty solid hot open for the newscast, had the producer wanted it.

But if you feel that's lazy, you could write something like, "Neighbors were terrified as they watched the fire engulf the house."
That's not lazy. It's also not necessary, not compelling, not to mention redundant.

Too many lazy reporters use too many of their words these days.
A hard working reporter crafts his/her story in the field the the photographer, finding compelling soundbites and shots that will lessen the need for a lot of heavy track later.

And if you can't find a way to craft your lead into that opening soundbite, ("Bob Saccamonow found neighbors...etc")
then you're taking a very narrow (and some would argue lazy) approach to storytelling.Judge - easy...settle...

First of all, your said soundbite is sexy as hell. Of course it would be okay to start with a SOT like that. In my original post, I was questioning the use of a rather mundane :15 SOT to start with.

No one is denying that teamwork with a photog will lead to better stoytelling...this isn't a too little/too much track debate, it's a debate as to whether it seems odd for a story to start with a random soundbite....which, unless it's compelling, does.

[TJAB 23]

Originally posted by Judge:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Mr G:
the more emotional, the more compelling, the more grabbing the SOT is...the more you should NOT start your story with it. It gets lost off the top and the viewer doesn't know who's talking, and more importantly, why they should care about what they say.

don't be lazy. come up with a good opening. set the tone, the mood,and the pace with good writing. you were there(and have already heard all the SOTS) and know what's important, but the viewer is coming in cold.

starting with some good nat sound, or a NATSOT like s'news said, is a good way to bring people in.Wow. I respectfully disagree 1000%.

To make a blanket argument that nat sounds or nat sots off the top are good choices, while soundbites are bad choices, well that's just plain narrow-minded, especially with no examples.</font>[/QUOTE]Very valid argument, sorry Judge. Actually, you look rather narrow minded to not even see Mr G's point.

Mr G makes a great argument...good writing can suck an audience into a story, hold them for a brief moment....and then....the sexy SOT turns a double into a triple...

[s'news]

Originally posted by Mr G:

what about this?

((PKG))
((NATS from neighborhood w/ VO of street))
BURGLARS TOOK MORE THAN THE PEACE OF MIND FROM THIS QUIET NEIGHBORHOOD.
((SOT w/ boy))
"They took Nemo."
...THEY TOOK THE SMILE FROM A THREE YEAR OLD BOY.I'd tweak this. You need to write to and with the video.

After NATS of neighborhood that reflect peace and quiet — chirping birds? — then ...

IT WAS MORE THAN JUST THE PEACE OF MIND THAT BURGLARS TOOK FROM THIS NEIGHBORHOOD.

or

THE PEACE IN SUNNY OAKS ISN'T ALL THAT BURGLARS MADE OFF WITH ...

Something along those lines. The video doesn't likely show burglars.

But I'm betting there's more compelling video to start with. Maybe with the kid doing something? And let's say Nemo is/was his pet fish and burglars took it.

NATS BITE: "I miss Nemo."

CART: Three-year-old Tommy Smith has an empty fishtank. And he's learning a grownup lesson about burglars.

BITE: "They took Nemo."

Something like that.

[Judge]

Originally posted by TJAB 23:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by Judge:
I completely disagree.
Sometimes a person's words and observations are more powerful and telling than anything you can write off the top.

For example, at a house fire with elderly people asleep inside, I found a teenage neighbor who was all amped up:
"Flames are SHOOTING out the roof!! And I'm bangin' on the door, POUNDING, SCREAMING,
Mr. Anderson!!! Mr. Anderson!!!!
YOU GOTTA GET OUT!!!!!!!!!"

That sounded like a pretty solid, grabby start to me, (with video of the raging fire).
In fact, it would have probably been a pretty solid hot open for the newscast, had the producer wanted it.

But if you feel that's lazy, you could write something like, "Neighbors were terrified as they watched the fire engulf the house."
That's not lazy. It's also not necessary, not compelling, not to mention redundant.

Too many lazy reporters use too many of their words these days.
A hard working reporter crafts his/her story in the field the the photographer, finding compelling soundbites and shots that will lessen the need for a lot of heavy track later.

And if you can't find a way to craft your lead into that opening soundbite, ("Bob Saccamonow found neighbors...etc")
then you're taking a very narrow (and some would argue lazy) approach to storytelling.Judge - easy...settle...

First of all, your said soundbite is sexy as hell. Of course it would be okay to start with a SOT like that. In my original post, I was questioning the use of a rather mundane :15 SOT to start with.

No one is denying that teamwork with a photog will lead to better stoytelling...this isn't a too little/too much track debate, it's a debate as to whether it seems odd for a story to start with a random soundbite....which, unless it's compelling, does.</font>[/QUOTE]TJAB:

No hard feelings here...I'm glad you started this thread. It's actually interesting and refreshing to argue over something related to journalism for a change.

I will hold that I'm among those who completely disagree with the arguments you and Mr. G are making here. To simply argue starting a story with a soundbite is "lazy"...well that's narrow-minded in my opinion.
But I'm glad you recognized the example I provided was an exception...that is, by the way, a true story (can't remember if I indicated that).

Anyway, no disrespect intended, we're just going to fall on opposite sides of this one.

[Lazlo Toth]

Two provisos:

Talking about a traditional package, not a live shot insert:

By SOT, I mean a sound bite in an interview situation, not nat sound or a grab comment in the middle of the b roll.

For me the prejudice would be not to use it to start the package, and it would have to be extraordinarily compeling for me to start with it.

On the other hand, I like brief nat to start a package when it's available.

But in the end, it's all about the best way to tell a story .. beginning middle and end .. so you do what works.

[TVNewsLady]

TVNewslady: I say only do it when the soundbyte is ripe with emotion, such as anger, surprise, something extreme.


Judge:

I completely disagree.
Sometimes a person's words and observations are more powerful and telling than anything you can write off the top.
***
Judge...I daresay we actually do agree, use soundbytes at the top when they are powerful and telling, not vague/obscure.

[sophie]

I'd love the hear how newslady's "nemo" pkg went. I really like s'news's, and MrG's rewrite suggestions, but I'm not sold on the notion that opening with the sounds of virtual nothingness and a shot of a street would grab me more than a little boy and his lost fish.

I guess there are many ways to write that story well,(and thanks for a couple of nice examples) but introducing the little fishless boy makes me want to find out what happened. You may have to sacrifice a couple cute turns of phrase, but in this particular case, opening with boy is neither better nor worse than not opening with the boy. Both are good. To me.

I'm, however, speaking as a viewer and not a writer.

To the original poster, a :15 talking head?....not the best choice.

[s'news]

Upon a closer reading of earlier posts, I see that they took the kid's Finding Nemo DVD, and not a fish, which I was thinking all along would be a silly thing for a burglar to take — but which would make for a whale of a story.

But in that context, and not knowing what video we have, I'd probably still want something with the kid to start off the story.

[sandbagger]

Where's upandown?

[s'news]

He declared some time back that he was only going to take part in highly politicized threads as the writer's craft and writerly matters no longer mattered to him.

[Mr G]

Originally posted by sandbagger:
Where's upandown?just turn to page 77. done.

[sandbagger]

Originally posted by Mr G:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr />Originally posted by sandbagger:
Where's upandown?just turn to page 77. done.</font>[/QUOTE]Sorry G, I don't follow.

[Head Janitor]

The only rule in broadcast news I believe in is: all rules are bendable.

I almost always use a sot to start off anchor pkgs-- but still limit them to five or six seconds.

[Fire Hydrogant]

Originally posted by LMS:
Well, if you need a practical reason not to do it, it's just about the best way to get your resume tape thrown out of the ND's tape deck....it's just bad storytelling.True, opening with a sot may be "the best way to get your resume tape thrown out of the ND's tape deck..." -but at the same time, the way I see it, the best way for a photog to get his/her demo thrown out of a chief photographer's tape deck, is to start a package with either:
-1, reporter track, or
-2, a talking head soundbite
And I emphasize the talking head part of that statement. You can probably see that I'm speaking as a shooter, in terms of the visual storytelling. I don't really have a problem starting with a soundbite per se. It's talking heads I have a problem with. So, if you must open with a SOT instead of nats, then the next best alternative is to cover the first few seconds of the SOT with relevant B-Roll.

Ultimately it all depends on what the available nat sound is, and what the sot in question is. Sometimes I'd rather have the emotionally charged talking head soundbite than nats of a car driving by in a neighborhood, unless automobile exhaust or automobile noise pollution is the topic of the story.



Originally posted by LMS:
Look at it this way. Do you tell a joke by starting with the punchline?
I agree with that point only if the SOT in question can really be considered a climax or "punchline" to the story, rather than an attention-grabbing beginning.

[ February 09, 2006, 09:41 PM: Message edited by: Fire Hydrogant ]